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Thread: 4.0 oil

  1. #1
    Registered dlundblad's Avatar
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    Default 4.0 oil

    As you all know, zinc (which apparently is the magical elixir for the 4.0 engines cankcase) is no longer added to oil for gas engines for catalytic purposes and such so some people (me included) have resorted to turbo diesel oil which has zinc. I have found a few threads related to the topic in a Google search, but nothing too specific that fully answered my questions.

    While Jeep recomends 10w 30 oil, the oil i use is 5w 40 (Mobil1) which is heavier. This isnt an issue in the summer, but i worry its a bit too viscous for the winter time temps. Plus my Jeep never sees a heated garage so its always cold when its started. And like all 4.0 engines, i have the noisy lifters on a cold start up and cant help but wonder if the oil has something to do with it.

    Who all has heard of diesel oil being used in a 4.0? Does the "no zinc" worry you enough to run a heavier diesel oil? Are there any additives on the market i could add while still running 10w 30 oil? I suppose at minimum i could run 10w 30 in the winter, but the lack of zinc still has me a little iffy.

    Any input is greatly appreciated.
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    I tried the 15w40 Rotella Diesle once (summer time). I did not see a difference later on I dumped it after about 1500km and went back to 5w or 10w30. It depends on what I find on sale but 90% of the time I run Quakerstate oil or another major brand oil company oil. In the summer the 10W version is fine IMO since it is the pouring grade when cold and of course temperature are usually above 70F in the summer.

    I am sure there is still Zinc but less then years ago in current oils to me the SAE rating on the jug.

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    I had the same worries as you a few years ago with my 4.0 WJ. After some looking around I ran across this. http://www.penngrade1.com/ There is a speed parts shop close to me that was able to get it for $50/case.
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    They have not removed all the zinc (actually its zinc + phosphorus) or zddp, they lowered the levels to about half what it was in the old days. The question is, are current levels enough for old school flat tappet engines. What I have read suggests that it is mostly an issue during break in or in modified engines with stiffer valve springs. On an older engine with original cam and lifters it is probably a non issue.
    If you read the specs on oil that is certified for gas and diesel engines, they have less zddp in their most recent formulations ( I used to use Chevron Delo 400 in our boat). If you redlly want the most zinc Valvoline Racing oil has the most that I have seen but it might be only available in a 20-50.
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    4 Litres of Fury trail rated's Avatar
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    A while ago I purchased a few cases of 5W-40 Rotella at a discount price. This is a fleet oil designed for use in all engines and it has a "normal" amount of zinc. To tell you the truth the engine did seem to operate somewhat quieter, but I didn't notice all that much of a difference. Various UOAs indicate that the reduced amount of ZDDP will not harm the engine during normal driving or even towing.

    My stash of Rotella is almost gone and I have decided to switch over to synthetic 0W-30 or 5W-30 just so I can use one oil in both of the cars.
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    Quote Originally Posted by trail rated View Post
    A while ago I purchased a few cases of 5W-40 Rotella at a discount price. This is a fleet oil designed for use in all engines and it has a "normal" amount of zinc. To tell you the truth the engine did seem to operate somewhat quieter, but I didn't notice all that much of a difference. Various UOAs indicate that the reduced amount of ZDDP will not harm the engine during normal driving or even towing.

    My stash of Rotella is almost gone and I have decided to switch over to synthetic 0W-30 or 5W-30 just so I can use one oil in both of the cars.
    I believe that is the T6 you have. Synthetic and also Wet Clutch compatible. I am getting a jug of that for my ATV. Its the best product around for that application. I might try it in my Jeep come summer time. When I run synthetic I let it ride out a few thousand Km longer than dino which I am change aroung 5000km now.

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    4 Litres of Fury trail rated's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tripplec View Post
    I believe that is the T6 you have. Synthetic and also Wet Clutch compatible. I am getting a jug of that for my ATV. Its the best product around for that application. I might try it in my Jeep come summer time. When I run synthetic I let it ride out a few thousand Km longer than dino which I am change aroung 5000km now.
    In the WJ I have always had a 12000 km service interval programmed into the EVIC. My 2.2L Saturn Ion has an oil life monitor system that usually prompts me to change the oil at around 15000 km.

    Currently the WJ has nearly 400,000 km and the Saturn has 130,000 km. Both engines have never been rebuilt, but the WJ has had the rear main seal replaced recently and virtually no sludge was found.

    For the past few years I have not idled the engine for warm up, even when I am in an area where the overnight low is -20C. I find that minimizing engine idling greatly improves fuel economy and the cabin heats up faster in cold weather. Also, I never turn off the air con. No mater what the temperature is I have the air conditioning on at all times. There is no significant difference in fuel economy in cool weather with the air con on or off, and below freezing the compressor will be off by default unless the low pressure switch is faulty.

    This may all seem silly to you but compared to other people that I know, I have had the least problems with my cars. The WJ is still on its original gearbox, engine, A/C system, heater core, etc. I have only had to deal with minor electrical problems.
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    Registered Billy Ray's Avatar
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    Shell's Rotella also comes in a semi-synthetic 10w30 diesel formula as well and is available at WalMart.

    I wouldn't have a problem with 15w40 unless you live in frigid winter weather areas.

    FWIW: 1. 'Diesel' oils are made from a better stock than 'auto' oils.
    2. Synthetic oil is so 'slippery' that I wouldn't worry about engine wear.

    I have used synthetic 5w30 once in my 4.0 and liked it but there was a drop in idle oil pressure so I believe in 10w30 for the 4.0 engine.

    Based on that experience I would never consider 0w30 unless I lived at the north or south poles or somewhere else where the temperature never exceeded freezing...

    My opinion is that properly spec'd synthetics are your friend and cost effective...
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    I've owned my '97 ZJ and '95 YJ since their birth and have used Mobil1 10W30 exclusively every 3-4K miles. With my last few oil changes, I've switched to a synthetic blend for cost cutting measures. So far I've had no issues with either 4.0. The ZJ doesn't burn any oil, and the YJ burns 1 qt/2000 miles.
    Last year I heard of the ZDDP issue and have been using a Zinc/ZDDP oil additive - Rislone Oil Supplement/Zinc ZDDP additive ever since. Especially beneficial for flat tappet engines like the 4.0. It helps keep the cam and tappets slippery. Engines such as Ford's 5.0 have roller tappets, so the new oil formulas are not as harmful.
    I've always believed that regular oil changes and maintenance help more than fancy additives, but I think the Zinc ZDDP debate is compelling enough for me to spend $6 more at every oil change
    95 YJ - 4.0
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    12000km, OMG well I usually done it twice for you once. Maybe easier to get away with in Florida but our temps all over the place even in the summer. I am not one to see how far I can push it an get away with it. Old school I get we change our oil. Those long interval may work based on manuals duty cycle charts but I have never seen an area that falls into those non severe service shedule.

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  11. #11
    4 Litres of Fury trail rated's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Ray View Post

    I have used synthetic 5w30 once in my 4.0 and liked it but there was a drop in idle oil pressure so I believe in 10w30 for the 4.0 engine.

    Based on that experience I would never consider 0w30 unless I lived at the north or south poles or somewhere else where the temperature never exceeded freezing...

    My opinion is that properly spec'd synthetics are your friend and cost effective...
    Between the 5W-30, 10W-30, and 5W-40, I have not noticed a significant difference in oil pressure. I seem to remember the 5W-30 and 10W-30 being a hair under the half way mark on the gauge while the 5W-40 was straight up and down. The reason 10W-30 is specified is because 5W-30 will shear due to the increased amount of viscosity improvers. This is not a significant issue with modern oil formulations, although I will still perform an oil analysis after draining the new oil.

    Quote Originally Posted by tripplec View Post
    12000km, OMG well I usually done it twice for you once. Maybe easier to get away with in Florida but our temps all over the place even in the summer. I am not one to see how far I can push it an get away with it. Old school I get we change our oil. Those long interval may work based on manuals duty cycle charts but I have never seen an area that falls into those non severe service shedule.
    Even in the cold parts of Russia (and the hot parts - yes there are hot places), the standard oil change interval that most people follow is 10000km.

    To ease your mind, you can send in the used oil for analysis and you will be given an estimate as to how far your will be able to drive with that particular oil. Here is a UOA that I performed on the Saturn:
    http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f9...ted/img004.jpg
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by trail rated View Post
    Between the 5W-30, 10W-30, and 5W-40, I have not noticed a significant difference in oil pressure. I seem to remember the 5W-30 and 10W-30 being a hair under the half way mark on the gauge while the 5W-40 was straight up and down. The reason 10W-30 is specified is because 5W-30 will shear due to the increased amount of viscosity improvers. This is not a significant issue with modern oil formulations, although I will still perform an oil analysis after draining the new oil.

    <snip>

    http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f9...ted/img004.jpg
    The difference between full synthetic 5w30 and the semi-syn 10w30 was a 'half-width' at idle. The pressure came back up immediately with throttle so I saw it as no danger but I preferred to be securely on the (+) side of halfway.

    I never ran 0w because while the pressure would still be adequate I feared another 'half-drop' which would work its way into my comfort zone.

    While we have hit -25F here in the wintertime that was before AlGore invented Global Warming.

    FWIW: I do still remember the sound of my engine trying to start that winter with Kendell GT 10w40 SE Dino Oil. That is partially why I was an early adopter of semi-synthetic for conventional engines and full synthetic for my '01 Bi-Turbo Audi.
    -br

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    All I know is my 93 ran off drip bucket oil of all different brands and weights both conventional and synthetic and I never thought twice about putting it in. It went 311k then I sucked water through the intake and it died a week later. Thats as far as my thought process will ever go about the 4.0 specifically and oil.
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  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by dlundblad View Post
    As you all know, zinc (which apparently is the magical elixir for the 4.0 engines cankcase) is no longer added to oil for gas engines for catalytic purposes and such so some people (me included) have resorted to turbo diesel oil which has zinc. I have found a few threads related to the topic in a Google search, but nothing too specific that fully answered my questions.

    While Jeep recomends 10w 30 oil, the oil i use is 5w 40 (Mobil1) which is heavier. This isnt an issue in the summer, but i worry its a bit too viscous for the winter time temps. Plus my Jeep never sees a heated garage so its always cold when its started. And like all 4.0 engines, i have the noisy lifters on a cold start up and cant help but wonder if the oil has something to do with it.

    Who all has heard of diesel oil being used in a 4.0? Does the "no zinc" worry you enough to run a heavier diesel oil? Are there any additives on the market i could add while still running 10w 30 oil? I suppose at minimum i could run 10w 30 in the winter, but the lack of zinc still has me a little iffy.

    Any input is greatly appreciated.
    it sounds like you're saying that you are worried 5w40 is more vicsous than 10w30 in the winter.

    i read your message twice and both times that's what i got from it. so either i read it wrong or nobody else caught that.

    if i read it right, rest assured the opposite should be true, 5w40 will probably be thinner in the winter than 10w30. that's what the W means, winter, referring to the thickness of the oil at 0 degrees F.

  15. #15
    Registered dlundblad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twojeeps View Post
    it sounds like you're saying that you are worried 5w40 is more vicsous than 10w30 in the winter.

    i read your message twice and both times that's what i got from it. so either i read it wrong or nobody else caught that.

    if i read it right, rest assured the opposite should be true, 5w40 will probably be thinner in the winter than 10w30. that's what the W means, winter, referring to the thickness of the oil at 0 degrees F.
    Yes you read it correctly. I just had my facts reversed. I just assumed heavy duty= thicker oil.

    *So basically 5w 40 oil is thin on a cold start (diesels need this because they run colder than gas.. and need longer warm up times), but as the engine goes to normal operating temperature it remains thick.. Thicker than what 10w 30 at normal operating temperature.
    Last edited by dlundblad; 01-08-2013 at 11:40 AM.
    David
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  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by dlundblad View Post

    While Jeep recomends 10w 30 oil, the oil i use is 5w 40 (Mobil1) which is heavier.
    INCORRECT. 5w40 is thinner. The first number listed on a multi-weight oil is the actual base oil weight....the second number is the equivelent of how it behaves at operating temperature. It is interesting to note that at 210 degrees F the viscosity of 10,15,20,30 &40 weight oils is almost identical. The important criteria is select oil by the lower number and your climate. The most important aspect of engine lubrication is FLOW not pressure....a high pressure on cold start-ups means your engine is starving for oil.

  17. #17

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    Not quite right. A 5w40 will still be thicker than a 5w30. It is still a 40 grade oil, it's just a much lighter one at start up than a 10w40 or 15w40. You can't take the first number and apply it across all the grades thinking they are the same, it's not quite that easy. A typical 5w20 will be much lighter than a typical 5w30. And a typical 5w30 will be much lighter than a 5w40, with the 5w20 probably being nearly half the thickness cold as the 5w40.

    As mentioned above there is less difference at full temp than cold. A 20 grade will be about 8.5 at 100c and at over 12.6 you've already jumped past 30 and are into light 40 weight oil.

    In fact I'm getting ready to run a 0w30 that is much thicker than most 5w30 and 10w30 oils, in fact it is one of the "thickest" 30 grade oils you can buy, so the numbers on the bottle are just a starting point really. But all most motorists really ever need as long as they follow their manuals. Oil geeks like me tend to take it a bit farther than that!
    Last edited by KayCeeJeep; 01-15-2013 at 07:25 PM.

  18. #18

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    Oh, in regard to the original topic, ZDDP (zinc/phosphorus) is good for flat tappets but I've seen no evidence a broken in Jeep 4.0 really needs elevated ZDDP levels. But it won't hurt either.

    Some good choices with elevated ZDDP levels include Rotella, Quaker State Defy, Castrol Edge 0w30 (the only Edge with higher ZDDP) and Mobil 1 High Mileage.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by KayCeeJeep View Post
    Not quite right. A 5w40 will still be thicker than a 5w30. It is still a 40 grade oil, it's just a much lighter one at start up than a 10w40 or 15w40. You can't take the first number and apply it across all the grades thinking they are the same, it's not quite that easy. A typical 5w20 will be much lighter than a typical 5w30. And a typical 5w30 will be much lighter than a 5w40, with the 5w20 probably being nearly half the thickness cold as the 5w40.

    As mentioned above there is less difference at full temp than cold. A 20 grade will be about 8.5 at 100c and at over 12.6 you've already jumped past 30 and are into light 40 weight oil.

    In fact I'm getting ready to run a 0w30 that is much thicker than most 5w30 and 10w30 oils, in fact it is one of the "thickest" 30 grade oils you can buy, so the numbers on the bottle are just a starting point really. But all most motorists really ever need as long as they follow their manuals. Oil geeks like me tend to take it a bit farther than that!
    Wrong. The 1st number is the base oil and the 2nd number is the equvilency of the viscosity modifiers that have been added to it.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbadon View Post
    Wrong. The 1st number is the base oil and the 2nd number is the equvilency of the viscosity modifiers that have been added to it.

    That is true, in part, but the second number is there for a reason the two numbers work IN TANDEM. A 5w40 is not the same as a 5w20 with more viscosity modifiers added, there's more to it than that.

    I doesn't sound like you're teachable but I'll post this for posterity or others who may be interested. Here's a look at one line of oils to compare. We'll use Castrol Edge, which has a 5w20, 5w30 and 5w40 all in the same line up.

    The typical published "cold" viscosity spec for oil is usually listed at 40c (104 F). So we'll use that to compare.

    The published viscosity for Edge at 40c:

    5w20 is 49.35
    5w30 is 62.64
    5w40 is 82.6

    So you see the viscosity of the 5w40 before start up at 40c is much higher than the lower grades.

    Of course it's also higher at full temp, that's the point and the main reason for the second number in the designations, but the numbers don't stand alone they work together in tandem.

    So a 5w40 should be thinner than a 10w40 at 40c, right? Let's look.

    Edge 5w40 82.6
    Edge 10w40 91.89

    Bingo! The 5w40 is indeed thinner at 40c than the 10w40, as it should be.

    How about a 5w30 and 10w30?

    Edge 5w30 62.64
    Edge 10w30 75.10

    Bingo again! Now we're getting somewhere.

    If all 5w oils were the same, just with more viscosity modifiers as you're saying, we'd expect the viscosity index (VI) to be much, much higher, nearly double in fact, on the 5w40 than the 5w20, right? Lets look.

    Edge 5w20 VI = 161
    Edge 5w30 VI = 159
    Edge 5w40 VI = 174

    So the 5w40 has a slightly higher VI, but nowhere near double the 20 grade, and the 5w30 is actually lower than the 5w20. A 5w40 is a much larger kinematic viscosity spread than 5w20 obviously so yes it does use more viscosity modifiers, but nowhere near as much as you'd need to double the viscosity from the same oil from a 20 grade to a 40 grade.

    See the pattern? This is the way it works. This is all in regard to kinematic viscosity, not the true oil "thickness" which is really measured in HTHS values but that's a whole nother topic for another day.

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