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Thread: CS144 Wiring Help

  1. #1

    Default CS144 Wiring Help

    I just posted up a question about the wiring in my engine compartment, but I need some special help with the Alternator.

    The CS144 I am using is from a '94 caddy that is putting out 140 amps. I chose this particular model as suggested over at ifsja.org because the engine I am using is from a FSJ and it has the correct clocking.

    So having reviewed the wiring diagram in my Hayes book for 80-83 models, I have developed the following questions:

    1. From the alternator plug, the brown wire #78 connects to position 75A on the fuse panel on the engine side. On the passenger side of the fuse panel it is again call 78 and runs to the ignition switch. I am using the NAPA adapter EC82 which is supposed to have the correct resistance. Can I run the wire #78 directly to position 75A from the adapter plug?

    2. From the alternator plug, the gauge 10 wire #12E connects to the starter solenoid on the positive side. Does this wire require a fusible link and if so what size?

    3. Having searched here and other places about installing a CS144, a new wire is needed to connect the back of the alternator to the positive side of the starter solenoid, #12. It has been suggested that a gauge 2 wire is needed to handle the amperage. Also a fusible link is needed in this wire and I am wondering what size fusible link?

    4. Finally from the positive side of the starter solenoid a gauge 10 wire runs to the fuse panel to position 12G. According to Haynes, this wire also requires a fusible link and I would like to know what size?

    Again I am a complete electrical novice and if what I have asked above makes no sense, please help me figure out what I should be asking.

    Thanks again,

    Charles

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981cj7 View Post
    I just posted up a question about the wiring in my engine compartment, but I need some special help with the Alternator.

    The CS144 I am using is from a '94 caddy that is putting out 140 amps. I chose this particular model as suggested over at ifsja.org because the engine I am using is from a FSJ and it has the correct clocking.
    It's VERY easy to re-clock an alternator, not an issue at all...
    (it doesn't surprise me one bit that the guys at IFSJA can't do this simple procedure)

    AND,
    I wouldn't take the word from anyone at IFSJA for anything.
    If they told me it was high noon, I'd take a flashlight to go look!
    Those guys just LOVE to send 'Noobies' down the wrong road!

    It's a 'Boys Club' over there, and more stuff they post is WRONG than is Correct. If you are not on the 'Inside', they will lie to you just to entertain themselves...

    CS 144 is going to be a problem to mount in your factory brackets.
    It's larger than the stock alternator, and has a different kind of mounting 'Foot'...

    You would be MUCH better off with a CS 130 alternator.

    So having reviewed the wiring diagram in my Hayes book for 80-83 models, I have developed the following questions:

    1. From the alternator plug, the brown wire #78 connects to position 75A on the fuse panel on the engine side. On the passenger side of the fuse panel it is again call 78 and runs to the ignition switch. I am using the NAPA adapter EC82 which is supposed to have the correct resistance. Can I run the wire #78 directly to position 75A from the adapter plug?
    Brown wire is a resistor wire, and you will have to ramp up the resistance to at least 75 Ohms to keep the regulator alive and keep the alternator properly charging.
    You MUST run 75 to 150 Ohms resistance to keep the alternator working correctly and alive.

    The EC82 will allow you to plug your old connector into the pig tail adapter, then plug the other end of the adapter into the CS alternator.

    If you want to do away with the connection between factory harness and adapter, you CAN cut the connector out of the circuit, just make sure you leave the resistor IN the circuit.

    2. From the alternator plug, the gauge 10 wire #12E connects to the starter solenoid on the positive side. Does this wire require a fusible link and if so what size?
    I can't imagine that there is a 10 Ga. wire going to the plug,
    More like 12 or 14 gauge,
    And YES, you can run that one back to the battery cable side of the starter relay.

    Be sure and use a fusible link at least 4 AWG Sizes smaller than the wire you are connecting to the alternator.
    (IE: 10 Ga. wire, use 14 Ga. Fusible link)

    3. Having searched here and other places about installing a CS144, a new wire is needed to connect the back of the alternator to the positive side of the starter solenoid, #12. It has been suggested that a gauge 2 wire is needed to handle the amperage. Also a fusible link is needed in this wire and I am wondering what size fusible link?
    Actually, your Jeep will never draw more than about 40 Amps, so a 10 Ga. wire is plenty unless you plan to weld directly off the alternator.

    See, your factory system had a 60, 70 or 80 amp alternator in it, and it has a 10 Gauge primary wire from the terminal on the back of the alternator to the starter relay battery cable side.

    Just before reaching the starter relay terminal,
    The 10 gauge wire had a FUSIBLE LINK in the wire.
    That fusible link blows somewhere between 40 & 50 amps of continuous loading...
    Since your vehicle made it about 24+ years with the fusible link intact, that means your vehicle never drew more than about 40 amps in it's entire existence.

    You DO NEED A FUSIBLE LINK in that primary wire, attached to the starter relay just like the factory wire did.
    You WILL NOT easily find a fusible link or fuse for a 2 Ga. wire.

    And by the way, big trucks in the arctic circle only use 2 Ga wire to turn the starter!
    There is no way you need ANYTHING that big on an alternator!

    4. Finally from the positive side of the starter solenoid a gauge 10 wire runs to the fuse panel to position 12G. According to Haynes, this wire also requires a fusible link and I would like to know what size?
    That wire feeds your fuse block, and you don't need to change it one bit...

    If you do decide to change out that wire, stay under 40 amps on the circuit protection and keep the circuit protection close to the starter relay.

    One other thing you need to remember,
    TOO MUCH AMPERAGE WILL KILL YOUR BATTERIES!

    Batteries like a low, slow charge, and if you blast charge them for very long, they won't live.
    Blast charging overheats the plates, warps them and they touch each other and short out the cell.
    Blast charging can also make the plates and bridges between cells come desoldered, and that will kill your battery also.

    If you have one of the 'Six Pack' AGM batteries like Optima, fast charging will create bubbles in the gel electrolyte that can't be expelled.
    Each little bubble is a 'Dead Spot' on the cell, and they add up REAL FAST.

    Since the bubbles can't rise to the top of the electrolyte and vent, they become a real issue real fast!

    Flooded lead/acid batteries will take fast charging much better, but they won't live forever if you blast charge them.

    Most guys complaining of not enough 'Charge' actually need a second battery.
    Second battery splits the load of each by half, Doubles the capacity for discharge without damage, and doesn't require you do anything to the charging system (provided the charging system is working correctly now).

    Anyway, you have a reasonable grasp on what has to be done,
    I'd just stay away from taking advice from people that will screw up your build just to entertain themselves...
    Last edited by JeepHammer; 09-02-2009 at 08:38 PM.
    REMEMBER!
    Information you got for free off the internet is worth EXACTLY what you paid for it!
    ----------------
    I used to be TeamRush, but I'm much better with medication...

  3. #3

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    Junk Yard Genius,

    Wow, thanks for the quick and thorough response.

    If you don't mind, I am going to print out what you have written and create some responses when I get home and post them tomorrow. Currently I am at work and I am ready to head to the house.

    That said, you did suggest I would have a hard time fitting the CS144 in my engine. Having held it in place on the 360, there appears to be enough room, where will the problem be? I am not doubting you, just wondering.

    Thanks again,

    Charles

  4. #4

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    By the way, here is the beast:



    Thanks,

    Charles

  5. #5

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    I encourage you to check out everything I'm saying!
    Don't take the word of a 'Floating Keyboard' in cyberspace!


    Lay out the 10 SI your engine had originally next to the CS 144 and you will find the CS 144 is about 1/2" to 5/8" wider between the mounting holes.

    This image shows a 10 SI front frame secured to the CS 144 (from a Cadillac so we are comparing apples to apples)
    With a long bolt though the 'Foot' mounting hole.

    Notice how much wider/taller the CS front frame is than the SI series front frames?



    This isn't a big deal if you have the two piece bracket with adjuster that is separate from the mounting bracket.
    You can grind some clearance into the engine mounting end of the adjuster to make it work...

    BUT,
    If you have a ONE PIECE BRACKET, then you are going to have some trouble getting the belt tension adjuster slot to work with the CS alternator since the space between mounting holes is wider.
    ------------------------------------------

    Take a look at this image,
    First thing you will notice is 4 case bolts, evenly spaced, on both alternators.
    This means you can 'Clock' either alternator at 12:00, 3:00, 6:00 or 9:00 simply by removing the four case bolts and twisting the back case to any clocking position you want.
    (making the guys at IFSJA immediately WRONG on what they told you!)



    You should also notice the CS on the left is LARGER DIAMETER than the SI on the right.
    This probably won't be a problme for most people, but space is often an issue with the older brackets that are one piece.

    The next thing you should notice is the back case bracket is still on the SI, and there is no place to use that bracket on the CS.
    If you don't mind chewing up and throwing belts, by all means, leave that bracket off and you WILL chew up and throw belts!

    You will have to fabricate a bracket that works with the bracket mounting boss close to the rear bearing boss.

    Again, this isn't a major issue, but it's something else that makes this Less than a 'Drop In' conversion.
    --------------------------------

    Also take a look at the Mounting 'Foot' on the alternator.
    Depending on which CS you have, the mounting 'Foot' can be much different than the SI has.

    This particular Cadillac has the same size mounting foot as the 12 SI and 10 SI alternators I have laying around here for parts.



    This isn't the case with all alternator front frames!
    You will run into longer, shorter, and TWO PIECE mounting feet from time to time,
    Make sure yours is the same length before you try and use the same brackets as the SI...
    .....

    Also notice the CS 144 is LONGER than the SI.
    More and longer windings are what gives you more production capacity, and the extra length has caused problems more than once when doing these conversions!

    Make sure you can mount this thing,
    With the rectifier fins UNCOVERED so they can get air flow over them (Fins seen through the back of the case),
    And make sure your 'BAT' terminal on the back isn't grounding out to something when mounted!
    ......

    Also notice the differences in the fans on the alternators.
    The CS fan is LARGER in diameter than the SI fan,
    And often times, the fan will collide with the mounting bracket.

    You MUST have fan clearance!
    You *CAN* shave some of the ends off the fan blades to make the fan clear the bracket,
    But Again,
    That is something else you have to 'Monkey With' to make it work, and moves this even further away from being a 'Drop In' conversion.

    --------------------------------------

    If you can meet that criteria, then you will have a successful install.

    And remember, you are only charging batteries and supplying power to the vehicle "Running" circuits.

    The alternator doesn't have to make Huge amounts of current since it's not supplying current directly to large drain devices like starter, winch, huge stereo, ect.

    That is what the battery (Batteries) do,
    The purpose of the alternator is to 'Refill' the battery.
    A 10 Ga. wire with a 12 or 14 Ga. fusible link will be plenty unless you do a LOT of winching,
    Then I'd go up to an 8 Ga. wire with a 12 Ga. fusible link.

    There is no way you can make an alternator produce 700 Amps or more to supply a starter motor on a cold morning, or to run a winch when it's loaded... That's the battery's job!
    The generator would have to be HUGE to do 700 or more amps!
    And I'm talking 150 Pounds and 18" in diameter and at least that long!

    That's why you don't need a 2 Ga. or 2/0 Gauge Cable from alternator to battery, since the batteries are never going to accept a charge much larger than about 10 amps, and most of the time, it's more like 2 amps,
    And your vehicle will EASILY run off a 30 amp power supply even with every FACTORY accessory fired up and running!

    *IF*...
    You have large loads, like winch, then INSTALL A SECOND BATTERY.
    This will double your supply to the winch,
    And it also means you have cut the drain of the first battery by half, so the battery recharges easier and lives longer!

    I'm all for using a CS alternator, and if it fits in your brackets with little to no modification, so much the better!
    BUT!
    IT's by no means a 'Drop In' install when you consider the larger resistor you need to make this work,
    The bracket modification,
    The pulley changes that often have to be done, Ect.
    REMEMBER!
    Information you got for free off the internet is worth EXACTLY what you paid for it!
    ----------------
    I used to be TeamRush, but I'm much better with medication...

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junk Yard Genius View Post
    I wouldn't take the word from anyone at IFSJA for anything.
    If they told me it was high noon, I'd take a flashlight to go look!
    Those guys just LOVE to send 'Noobies' down the wrong road!
    That's too bad to hear, some of the information I have gotten from them has been useful. But its like you signature says about the free information you get on the internet and what its worth


    Quote Originally Posted by Junk Yard Genius View Post
    CS 144 is going to be a problem to mount in your factory brackets.
    It's larger than the stock alternator, and has a different kind of mounting 'Foot'...

    You would be MUCH better off with a CS 130 alternator.
    Having held it in place on the 360, there appears to be enough room, where will the problem be? I am not doubting you, just wondering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Junk Yard Genius View Post
    The EC82 will allow you to plug your old connector into the pig tail adapter, then plug the other end of the adapter into the CS alternator.

    If you want to do away with the connection between factory harness and adapter, you CAN cut the connector out of the circuit, just make sure you leave the resistor IN the circuit.
    I mistyped here, my goal is to run the resistor wire from the original plug that is inserted into the EC82 adapter, sounds like this is ok.



    Quote Originally Posted by Junk Yard Genius View Post
    I can't imagine that there is a 10 Ga. wire going to the plug,
    More like 12 or 14 gauge,
    And YES, you can run that one back to the battery cable side of the starter relay.

    Be sure and use a fusible link at least 4 AWG Sizes smaller than the wire you are connecting to the alternator.
    (IE: 10 Ga. wire, use 14 Ga. Fusible link)
    Sounds good.



    Quote Originally Posted by Junk Yard Genius View Post
    Actually, your Jeep will never draw more than about 40 Amps, so a 10 Ga. wire is plenty unless you plan to weld directly off the alternator.

    See, your factory system had a 60, 70 or 80 amp alternator in it, and it has a 10 Gauge primary wire from the terminal on the back of the alternator to the starter relay battery cable side.

    Just before reaching the starter relay terminal,
    The 10 gauge wire had a FUSIBLE LINK in the wire.
    That fusible link blows somewhere between 40 & 50 amps of continuous loading...
    Since your vehicle made it about 24+ years with the fusible link intact, that means your vehicle never drew more than about 40 amps in it's entire existence.

    You DO NEED A FUSIBLE LINK in that primary wire, attached to the starter relay just like the factory wire did.
    You WILL NOT easily find a fusible link or fuse for a 2 Ga. wire.

    And by the way, big trucks in the arctic circle only use 2 Ga wire to turn the starter!
    There is no way you need ANYTHING that big on an alternator!
    I just wondered about continuous loading and this wire. Because I am a simpleton when it comes to electrical system, what would happen if you had all the accessories running at the same time, A/C, blower motor, lights, electric cooling fan (taurus 2spd), etc. Could all these sytems create a continuous load more than the 40-50 amps? I suspose not, because this situation probably occured when the vehicle was running in the beginning, except for the electric cooling fan. I guess I just answered my own question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Junk Yard Genius View Post
    One other thing you need to remember,
    TOO MUCH AMPERAGE WILL KILL YOUR BATTERIES!
    How does one limit the amperage charging the battery?

    Thanks again for the assistance, This information is extremely helpful!

    Charles

  7. #7

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    I do have the (2) piece alternator bracket.

    Charles

  8. #8

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    I'm all for you doing your own verification and research, can't hurt anything for you get get independent information and/or verification on anything I post,
    Especially if it will help you to understand how this stuff is SUPPOSED to work, and not just what some 'Internet Joker' types out to entertain himself...

    I know that I can claim ANYTHING on the internet,
    But I actually owned a starter, alternator and battery shop specializing in industrial and heavy equipment for about 10 years.
    You don't have any way of verifying that,
    So I encourage you to verify any of the information I give you here with a REPUTABLE source!
    Like Delco Remy online information, or one of the larger re-builders/parts suppliers, like Transpo.

    Once you find out what I'm telling you is accurate and COMPLETE, then we can move past taking everything with a grain (or ton!) of salt!
    -------------------------

    Something I forgot in the first two posts,
    The pulley on the Cadillac alternator is PROPRIETARY.
    You will need a special tool to take it off since there is a compression ring between shaft and pulley.

    If the pulley on there will work for you, then you are OK.
    But if you load the alternator past about 75 Amps, a single 'V' belt won't do the job.
    The load on the rotor will be too great, and you will spin the belt on the pulley, or spin the pulley on the shaft,
    Instead of turning the alternator shaft like it's supposed to.

    That is the reason for the compression ring on the Cadillac alternators.
    It was an attempt to keep the pulley from turning on the shaft.

    Later designs fixed this problme with the compression ring and a serpentine belt that had a lot more contact area with the pulley,
    And earlier alternators that cranked out more than 70 or 75 amps used TWO 'V' belts to get the job done correctly.

    If you notice the FSJ SI alternator I showed in the pictures has 2 'V' belt pulley, and that is a Factory 86 Amp 12 SI alternator off an '86 FSJ.
    ------------------------------------


    Quote Originally Posted by 1981cj7 View Post
    That's too bad to hear, some of the information I have gotten from them has been useful. But its like you signature says about the free information you get on the internet and what its worth
    Some of the guys over at IFSJA are OK and will help you out just fine,
    Others claim to be 'Gods' of the full size world, and those are the ones you have to watch.

    The 'Moderators' in particular will lie to you just to entertain themselves and their 'friends'.

    The general users will help you out, but the knowledge of the general users is usually limited and incomplete.

    As you can see, I give COMPLETE answers, not just a line or two or some smart remarks that don't help at all!
    -----------------------------

    Having held it in place on the 360, there appears to be enough room, where will the problem be? I am not doubting you, just wondering.
    If you have the two piece mounting from the later style FSJ, with the belt tensioner arm that IS NOT attached to the 'Foot' mounting bracket, then you will probably be OK.
    You may have to clearance the tensioner arm or fan for clearance, that's pretty common, and not hard to do,
    Just time consuming and aggravating when you were told this is a 'Drop In' conversion/upgrade.
    ------------------------------------

    I mistyped here, my goal is to run the resistor wire from the original plug that is inserted into the EC82 adapter, sounds like this is ok.
    Since you are using the EC82 adapter, you can leave it in or take it out, doesn't matter...
    Since the EC82 has enough resistor to keep the alternator alive and charging correctly, the choice is entirely yours.

    Just remember, you will have to use CRIMP CONNECTORS on that resistor wire, since it won't solder worth a darn without special preparation.
    I prefer soldered connections, but in the case of the resistor wire, since it passes so little current, and it's such a pain to solder correctly, I just use a crimp terminal and forget it!
    -----------------------

    Subject; 'Bat' terminal to starter relay, battery cable side.

    [quote]I just wondered about continuous loading and this wire.
    Because I am a simpleton when it comes to electrical system, what would happen if you had all the accessories running at the same time, A/C, blower motor, lights, electric cooling fan (taurus 2spd), etc. Could all these sytems create a continuous load more than the 40-50 amps?

    With a 10 Ga. wire and 12 or 14 Ga. fusible link, the worst that would happen would be the fusible link burns as intended when you overload the system.

    That fusible link is there to protect the wire going TO the alternator, since it has battery voltage full time.
    If that wire grounds out, say, gets against the exhaust manifold or gets pinched between metal parts,
    That would be a dead ground, and the current load would exceed the 50 or so amps the FUSIBLE LINK is capable of...

    That would burn the fusible link up
    (Which the 'Burn' will stay inside the insulation, the insulation on a fusible link is designed to contain the burn)
    And the circuit would go 'Dead' since it wasn't connected to the battery anymore.

    Remember, your vehicle has survived 24+ years on a single 14 Ga. fusible link without failing, so what makes you think you are going to overload that circuit anytime soon?

    If you were to replace that fusible link with something like a 'Maxi-Fuse', when you reached the limit of the fuse, it's going to blow RIGHT NOW!
    No time heating up before it burns like a fusible link does,
    SO,
    If you ground a wrench out trying to put the wire on the back of the alternator... The Maxi-Fuse is going to BLOW!
    The fusible link will stay intact since it's on a delay (heat up time) and save you from yourself.

    The reason the fusible link is connected to the starter relay is to keep it away from battery gasses that can be explosive...
    By moving the alternator and fuse block (and any other heavy drain accessories you care to add later) to the starter relay, the fusible link won't ignite any battery gasses like it would if you had it attached to a battery terminal.

    It's a GOOD, SAFE system feature, and you should keep it!
    ----------------------------------

    I suspose not, because this situation probably occured when the vehicle was running in the beginning, except for the electric cooling fan. I guess I just answered my own question.
    The CS alternator will charge more at lower RPM.
    Take a look at the STATOR BAND, the steel part between front frame and rear case half...
    See how much larger the STATOR WINDINGS ARE on the CS over the SI?
    This is MUCH MORE generating capacity, so you get more out of the alternator at lower RPMs...

    Like when you are idling in traffic playing with the electric windows while the air conditioner and radio are on full blast, and the electric fans are trying to keep up with humid summer heat...

    BUT!
    With all COMMON vehicle accessories turned on, you still aren't going to draw enough to heat up an 8 or 10 Ga. primary wire and/or it's fusible link!

    With absolutely EVERYTHING turned on in my truck, and towing a trailer with all the light on it working,
    I STILL don't use more than about 26 Amps...
    Add another 3 to 5 amps to charge dual batteries, and you are STILL no where near the current requirments to overload a 10 Ga. or 8 Ga. wire.
    ------------------------------------------

    How does one limit the amperage charging the battery?

    YOU DON'T.

    That's the voltage regulators job, and it does it very well.

    See, when you lack for amperage, the voltage starts to drop...
    When the voltage regulator senses a voltage drop below a pre-set point, it turns more current on to the rotor,
    Rotor makes a stronger magnetic field,
    Stronger Magnetic field induces more current production in the Stator,
    Stator delivers that current to the rectifiers which turns 3 phase AC current into DC current,
    And that increase in current brings the Amperage/Voltage back up to a preset limit,
    Then the regulator backs down the current it passes to the rotor, and everything levels off...

    Yes, I know that's pretty technical, but most guys don't have a clue that 'Alternator' is short for 'Alternating Current Generator' and that 'Alternators' produce 3 phase AC,
    Don't have a clue about the Electro-Magnetic link,
    How magnetic fields INDUCE current in conductors,
    Or that Diodes RECTIFY the AC current into usable DC current...

    But they feel perfectly qualified to tell SOMEONE ELSE they should do something they themselves won't do and don't understand...

    Your voltage regulator is actually a CURRENT FLOW REGULATOR,
    It only uses a VOLTAGE sample to ascertain how much current should be produced or deleted from the system.
    --------------------------

    Trust me, you do NOT need a 140 Amp alternator to power up a 12 volt battery or a vehicle that might use 30 amps on the worst of days!

    On the other hand, that alternator will charge more, sooner than the SI alternators will,
    And if you are a real off roader, having a good charge at low engine speeds while you are trial riding or trying to Finesse an obstacle is a GOOD THING!

    I just though you should know that the 'Drop In' isn't always a 'Drop In'!

    Thanks again for the assistance, This information is extremely helpful!
    Not a problem, that's why this forum is so much better than a lot of the other 'Jeep' forums..

    No name calling, no making someone feel foolish because he's new to this or that...
    We are here to help each other out when we can!
    REMEMBER!
    Information you got for free off the internet is worth EXACTLY what you paid for it!
    ----------------
    I used to be TeamRush, but I'm much better with medication...

  9. #9
    Registered fulsizjeep's Avatar
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    Hey Junk Yard, sure takes a lot of typing for you to say something. I hope you have gotten over your lost lust for IFSJA. When your comments are biased to be a IFSJA hater, what are you really saying? It is your opinion that you are broadcasting and not the facts. OPINION. Just like bungholes, everybody has one.

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    You're hollering at a post from Sept 2009, he hasn't been around here for quite a while.

  11. #11
    Registered fulsizjeep's Avatar
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    Wink

    Not hollering really. That would take some large caps. I am just saying what I am saying is all.
    Flint
    JJ | QuadraTrac | Ouray FSJ Invasion

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  12. #12
    Senior Moderator CJSIXER's Avatar
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    Folks there is no reason for this discussion to go any further. Junk Yard Genius hasn't posted on this forum in months, not since some time last year. Fulsizjeep I do realize that JYG has made some enemies on the internet but there is no reason to be stirring this pot because he won't be here to respond anyhow. Thanks.

    1970 CJ-6: 305 TPI V8, NV4500, Dana 18 w/Teralow 3:15 gears, Dana 44 rear w/Detroit, 4:88s and custom Moser Alloy shafts, Dana 30 front w/4:88s and Bid Daddy OR HD Tierod kit flipped on top of the knuckles, full cage tied in with Saginaw power steering conversion and power brake conversion. 35 inch Super Swamper SSRs on 17x9 Procomp Steel Wheels. Kilby On Board Air---
    2000 XJ Cherokee Sport - Traded the old girl in on a 2011 Dodge Ram 1500 so I could tow the CJ to and from the trail. Only one Jeep in the family these days.

  13. #13
    Registered fulsizjeep's Avatar
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    Copy that - I am done - Thanks
    Flint
    JJ | QuadraTrac | Ouray FSJ Invasion

    The Edge... There is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over. Hunter S. Thompson

    No part of this post, written or pictured, may be re-used by any individual or organization or publication without my express written permission

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