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Thread: Dauntless 225 V6 Timing

  1. #1
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    Icon5a Dauntless 225 V6 Timing

    Hey guys...

    Got a question. My Jeep has been idling rough and occasionally misfiring (at all speeds) and less frequently backfiring...

    So, after assuming this was probably a points or spark gap issue, I grabbed my strobe and dwell meter and went out to go check things out. Before I opened everthing up, I decided to check the way things were wired in comparison to the Haynes manual.

    Well, unless the 1-6 numbers on the distributor cap are just "arbitrary" or this cap is for another distributor and just happened to fit this one before I bought the jeep, then we have a major issue here... It seems Distributor Terminal 1 is wired to Cylinder 3, and likewise, 2-off from what it should be, all the way around the cap.

    Also, if haynes' illustration of where the terminals should be located is any indicator, and where they are marked on this distributor, everything is cranked counter-clockwise (advance? dist runs clockwise to get the 1-6-5-4-3-2 firing order) significantly so that cylinder 1 is on the appropriate rotation.

    I guess my point here is- Am I on crack, or was the guy who last did the timing? Will setting things back the way they "should be" iron out my little problem here, or should I just leave it as is and go back to looking at my points and spark gap?

    Any ideas?
    cheers,
    dj

    1970 Kaiser-Jeep CJ5 - FACTORY Buick Dauntless 225 Odd-Fire V6
    Lifted + 31x10.50's and alot of KRYLON

  2. #2
    Registered lynn's Avatar
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    Default Gotta love the sound of an odd-fire...

    Ah, DJ, there's a couple things that could be "amiss" with your timing.
    1) PO could have installed even fire cap/distributor
    2) PO could have wired the plugs incorrectly. Note that on an odd-fire, you rotate the wires by two positions, not one.
    3) Check to see if #4 plug isn't firing. You might just have a sticking lifter, try running a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil in with your motor oil. (don't overfill, drain a qt before adding the MMO)

    There are a number of good sites for the Dauntless V6 and your Early CJ5.
    First, Check out the Early CJ5 and Dauntless V6 page linked in my sig. Join our forum where we discuss resto and mods to these forgotten Jeeps, as well as solutions to problems like you have encountered. Hope to see you there.

    Then check out this link for info on the odd-fire:
    http://home.off-road.com/~merls_garage/oddfire.html

    HTH
    Lynn

    Early CJ5 Forums

    '05 LJ, Patriot Blue
    3" FT lift, Rancho 9000XLs, 33x10.50 BFG MTs, 15x7 Outlaw IIs, Rubi flares, OME stab, JKS F&R adj trackbars, JKS QDs, custom seat risers, Cassidy's bumpers, sliders & swingout.

  3. #3
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    Dont worry about the relation to the marks on the Dist and wires. The important part is that the wires go to the correct cylinder in the correct order around the cap. If not, you will get a large flame out the carb, and you'll know right off. So, find your #1, and compare the order of wires around the cap to the order in your manual, I bet they match. Also, make sure that the rotor is pointed at #1 when the motor is at TDC on #1 cylinder. However, if any of these are wrong it won't run hardly at all, so I bet your stuff is okay.

    Now, timing and dwell may cause the conditions you indicate, but more likely you have a fouled plug, or cracked cap. A rough idle is kinda mandatory on a 225, but you don;t say how rough. If it is misfiring, you can take your timing light and hook it onto each plug wire and watch it blink, the culprit will be obvious. If it is missing on one plug, check that one. If it is missing a little on each plug, keep looking toward your points.

    Backfiring out where? Carb? Exhaust?

    If carb, check dwell, timing, or for cracked cap.

    If exhaust, look to mixture, exhaust leak, or smog pump prob.

    Dont give up on it, 225's are getting hard to find. Plus they sound like, they have a cam from the factory.

    EDIT, Or you could do like lynn says and ask the guys that know
    Forgive your enemies.
    It messes with their heads

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    Default

    Thanks for the info you guys...

    Lynn, actually I've been to your page

    Some very nice info there.

    Its _very_ rare I backfire... and when I do, I beleive it's exhaust.

    It does smell a little rich, so that's probably why it's doing that...

    But, the roughness isn't the odd-fire "loping cam" sounding idle... it's more along the lines of "COME ON KEEP RUNNING!" Usually worse when the engine is cold, but it doesn't have to be cold for it to happen.

    It's certainly a missing cylinder, and maybe Lynn is right, it could be a sticking lifter. Usually if it's running smooth, it will remain running smooth without a load on it, which is making this tough to track down in the garage.

    If I get out on the street and wind out my gear until 3000-3500 rpm it will start missing then, even if it's running smooth at idle and lower rpms. Does this fall under the sticking lifter idea again?

    Thanks again for all the help, y'all.
    cheers,
    dj

    1970 Kaiser-Jeep CJ5 - FACTORY Buick Dauntless 225 Odd-Fire V6
    Lifted + 31x10.50's and alot of KRYLON

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    Cool

    Hmm...

    It's still a little rough, but peeping down the barrel of the carb shows me that once I get over about 1700 rpm, it's pouring drops of gas down the carb rather than a jet or spray... hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    Things did get better when I changed the fuel filter last week, and that filter was rather new, and QUITE nasty... :/

    I just got done redoing the entire brake system... looks like the next project is the entire fuel system... Good thing too, the brazed-on fitting on top of my tank leaks if I try to top off the tank... kinda scary, sitting on top of a leaking fuel cell.
    cheers,
    dj

    1970 Kaiser-Jeep CJ5 - FACTORY Buick Dauntless 225 Odd-Fire V6
    Lifted + 31x10.50's and alot of KRYLON

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    Registered lynn's Avatar
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    OK, I had that problem once. I got a rebuild kit at NAPA for the stock Rochester 2G, swapped in the new accelerator pump, it's been good ever since.

    A quart of MMO with every oil change can't hurt anything, and will keep your lifters clean. I also add 4 oz to the fuel tank with about every other fill up.

    Also if you're still running points, and have a Delco distributor, install a Pertronics Ignitor kit to replace the points . P/N 1165. Cost under $100. You won't believe how much improvement you'll get. I've been running this since '97. Smooth, no hesitation, no cough.
    If you have the Prestolite distributor, can't do the Pertronics. Pull it out, replace it with an HEI set-up from a '76 or early '77 Buick 231 odd-fire. It's a drop-in, except you might need to grind a bit on the intake manifold bolt head, or replace the bolt with a low-profile head.

    Check that new fuel filter. If the old one was that nasty, maybe the new one is already clogged. Is it a clear see-through one? Suggest you flush-and-seal, or replace your fuel tank. May as well replace the fuel pump while you're at it. Then consider a Melling Hi-Vol oil pump...
    Lynn

    Early CJ5 Forums

    '05 LJ, Patriot Blue
    3" FT lift, Rancho 9000XLs, 33x10.50 BFG MTs, 15x7 Outlaw IIs, Rubi flares, OME stab, JKS F&R adj trackbars, JKS QDs, custom seat risers, Cassidy's bumpers, sliders & swingout.

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    I've probably overlooked all the places that mention... how can I tell if I have the delco or prestolite distributor?

    It's timed at 0* TDC, so I'm assuming it must be the Prestolite, since my Haynes says 0* for the Prestolite. It has a vacuum and a centrifugal advance on it, centrifugal is just under the rotor, and blocks my view of the points...

    I looked at NAPA online and they only show carb parts for the 1bbl f-head carb...
    cheers,
    dj

    1970 Kaiser-Jeep CJ5 - FACTORY Buick Dauntless 225 Odd-Fire V6
    Lifted + 31x10.50's and alot of KRYLON

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    The Delco distributor cap will always have a little slide-up metal window to adjust the points. The prestolite does not have the window. Delco was the stock dist in '67. Sometime later they switched to prestolite junk.
    I was lucky, mine already had the Delco swapped in.
    Here's a link to doing HEI:
    http://www.off-road.com/jeepster/fixtip2.htm

    As for NAPA, they have it. You just need to go in person when they are not busy, and work with someone who has a bit of knowledge. The Rochester 2G was on lots of cars: a variety of mid-60s V6 Buicks, as well as some Chevy 283s and some 327s. Also Jeep Commando from 66 - 71 ran this carb on the 225. The rebuild kits will all be the same. NAPA gets funny when someone asks for Jeep stuff, it's like they suddenly don't know anything about auto parts...

    I believe timing with the Delco is 5*BTDC.

    Just thinking, you might want to replace your timing gears and chain if they are original. Your timing may have jumped. Stock items were aluminum gears with nylon teeth. The teeth get brittle after 30 or so years. Most places like Autozone have replacement steel gears/chain. Or get some really good stuff (Do a search over on the Early CJ5 board for better brands of timing gear sets)
    Lynn

    Early CJ5 Forums

    '05 LJ, Patriot Blue
    3" FT lift, Rancho 9000XLs, 33x10.50 BFG MTs, 15x7 Outlaw IIs, Rubi flares, OME stab, JKS F&R adj trackbars, JKS QDs, custom seat risers, Cassidy's bumpers, sliders & swingout.

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    Hmm. Hadn't thought about the timing chain and gears.

    Nylon? You're not kidding.

    Ok, yeah, I figured the online system was probably just confused... Couldn't imagine NAPA not carrying parts for the Rochester carb...

    I'll read that HEI article again, maybe I'll go that way and get rid of the prestocrap... I don't know alot about HEI, but as I understand, I won't need my coil anymore?
    cheers,
    dj

    1970 Kaiser-Jeep CJ5 - FACTORY Buick Dauntless 225 Odd-Fire V6
    Lifted + 31x10.50's and alot of KRYLON

  10. #10
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    Yep, coil will be in the cap.
    And yes, nylon teeth. Sometimes pieces of these teeth can be found in the bottom of the oil pan, just before things get ugly...

    I'll be offline until tommorrow morning.
    Again I refer you to the Early CJ5 forum if you have additional questions. The guys there will be happy to help you out. Some of the guys there run HEI, some run Pertronics. Few run points.
    Good Luck!
    Lynn

    Early CJ5 Forums

    '05 LJ, Patriot Blue
    3" FT lift, Rancho 9000XLs, 33x10.50 BFG MTs, 15x7 Outlaw IIs, Rubi flares, OME stab, JKS F&R adj trackbars, JKS QDs, custom seat risers, Cassidy's bumpers, sliders & swingout.

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    Thanks again for all the help, Lynn.

    I'll check with your bulletin board and do some reading.
    cheers,
    dj

    1970 Kaiser-Jeep CJ5 - FACTORY Buick Dauntless 225 Odd-Fire V6
    Lifted + 31x10.50's and alot of KRYLON

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    Ok, have a look at this:





    I think this is the Delco? Reason I say is because it seems there SHOULD be a little metal window on the side of the cap to adjust the points, but instead it's a BIG GAPING HOLE... :/

    Also, the cap looks new, but it's got a burned terminal on it.

    I guess if this IS a Delco, I need to do the following:

    1) Replace points with Pertronics Ignitor P/N 1165
    2) Re-time 5* BTDC instead of current 0*
    3) Get a new Cap
    4) Go ahead and gap & install the bosch platinum plugs I picked up.

    The carb still has some trouble even though I sprayed alot of berryman's cleaner into it... I still haven't opened my carb kit because it's been 10+ years since the last time I had to rebuild a carb, and as I recall I never was that good at it, and I'd rather pick up a cheap replacement. AutoZone has a 2GC, but I think I need a bigger manifold to mount that? Anyone know what year/make/model engine had our exact same carb & jets on it? I'd rather just swap in a new carb...
    cheers,
    dj

    1970 Kaiser-Jeep CJ5 - FACTORY Buick Dauntless 225 Odd-Fire V6
    Lifted + 31x10.50's and alot of KRYLON

  13. #13
    Registered lynn's Avatar
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    Yep, that's a Delco, and it's missing the slide window.
    I agree with your plan (get new rotor along with new cap).
    Lots of places carry Pertronics Ignitor now. If you can't find it elsewhere, I got mine from Northstar Electronics, 1-800-659-8163, back in 1996/97. Read the directions carefully, especially to measure distributor climb. You might have to install a shim on the distributor shaft. It's not hard to do, just be sure to use a new roll pin when replacing the gear. Ask me how I know
    Be sure that the distributor shaft is seated in the oil pump shaft when you put the distributor back in.

    The Rochester 2GV and 2GC are identical, except for the choke. Autozone doesn't have much in their computer for Jeep prior to 1970. Ask for a carb for a 1971 Commando or CJ5.

    This same question about the 2G is currently being discussed over on the Early 5 board...
    EDIT: Looks like that's YOUR post on the Early 5 board

    I'll be offline from about 2 pm today until Tuesday. Go to the Early 5 board if you have more questions over the weekend.
    Good Luck!
    Lynn

    Early CJ5 Forums

    '05 LJ, Patriot Blue
    3" FT lift, Rancho 9000XLs, 33x10.50 BFG MTs, 15x7 Outlaw IIs, Rubi flares, OME stab, JKS F&R adj trackbars, JKS QDs, custom seat risers, Cassidy's bumpers, sliders & swingout.

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    Thanks Lynn (and everyone else!) for your help and guidance on this...

    here's where we are now...

    Points- Points were not aligned to make full contact with each other, were scorched and were pitted. - replaced

    Plugs- Plugs were gapped randomly between .020-.040... no anti-sieze or dielectric goop either...

    Cap- Cap had a scorched terminal

    Carb- Accelerator pump malfunctioning, float was misadjusted, idle mixture WAY too rich... rebuilt the whole dang thing, let it chem-dip for a "long while"

    Advance- Now this one I'll give some credit to the guy who last worked on this thing, because I made the same mistake. Straight at the top of the crank pulley is a mark on something that looks like a triangular pointer. He (and I) mistook this for the timing TDC mark.

    NOT THE CASE. That's about 20-35* BTDC at that point (say whaaa?) the timing SCALE was covered in 1/4" of sludge and covered with green krylon that the numbers on the scale were unreadable. Couple blasts of spray solvent, and the sludge and paint were gone. Timing set to apropriate 5* BTDC.

    New cap & points (32* Dwell, per spec), new Bosch Platinum plugs each one METICULOUSLY gapped to .035.

    I still need to tweak the carb ever so slightly, because I have a hesitation shifting from Idle to Throttle, but BOY OH BOY does this kitty PURRRRR now!

    I thought it was torquey BEFORE all this mess. OMG! It'll really blow your hair back now!

    Still stumbles a little bit, which may still be a sticky lifter...

    Next project- Berrymans Chem-tool in the oil, another oil & filter change w/ a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil in the mix... if it's a sticky lifter that ought to sort it GOOD.
    cheers,
    dj

    1970 Kaiser-Jeep CJ5 - FACTORY Buick Dauntless 225 Odd-Fire V6
    Lifted + 31x10.50's and alot of KRYLON

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