1st post/258 carb or FI

[CJay]

Howdy all. New to the forum, but I've had my '83 CJ-7 since I was sixteen (just turned 30).

Anyway, I'm getting the old 258 rebuilt and am ready to ditch the POS Carter carb. I've been doing a lot of reading and listening, and I'm still up in the air over what to replace it with. So, my question(s) are:

#1: What's the general consensus on the best carb for the 258? Motorcraft 2100, Holley, Weber, or something else?

#2: If I bite the bullet and go with fuel injection (which I'm leaning towards), Is the added cost of the Mopar setup worth it over the Howell system? Being in Houston, I have to undergo an annual smog check, so if the Howell is non-emissions legal, that would tend to settle it...

Thanks in advance.

Jay

[Trent]

If you have the money I would go with the injection. If they do a smog check in your area open the hood and check to see if all the stock stuff is there with a different carb. I don't think it will pass. As far as I know the howell is smog legal but you might want to call them direct to check?

[This message has been edited by Trent (edited 03-29-2001).]

[LazyTJ]

Both the Howell and Mopar unit are legal in California, so I'm sure that they would be ok in Texas. As for just putting on a better carb, well...?

I've heard folks say that it might be better to put in a newer 4.0 instead of rebuilding and EFIing a 258. You should look int this if it isn't too late. I'm strill trying to decide what to do with mine.

------------------
LazyTJ - '81 CJ-8

Basic CJ stats: I6, SR-4 4spd, oil leak kit, rough idler circuit (i.e. BBD), A/C, 8274, RE 4.5 extreme lift, 33x12.5 GY MTR, Off-Again brake booster, ABS (well, can't stomp on the pedal hard enough to cause a skid) ...

[Ground Pilots]

I looked into both the Howell and the Mopar set up for a long time. I went with the Mopar because, to me I think it is a better set up. I like the thought of multi-port injection and keeping it factory. That was almost three years ago and I have never had a problem with any part of it. I'm really glad I choose the Mopar kit because I can do the 4.0 head conversion from Clifferd perfomance and gain just from the head alone about 120 hp. Add the efi and (from what I have read)it will fit and get the whole thing close to 300hp.
I'm watching a show on TNN called Trucks and the project that they just started working on is getting the most hp from a 258. Its on every Saturday and this sat they will be installing the Mopar EFI kit, last sat they installed the 4.0 head and on there product review they talked about the Howell kit but they went with the Mopar kit. I hoping they will explain why in the next show. Go efi you will not regret it, its more money but I think it is well worth it. I have gone through smog check and passed with flying colors.

------------------
1989 Jeep Wrangler
4.2ltr w/ Mopar fuelinjection kit and intake. 17" flexlite fan. Jet stage 1 computer chip. Jacobs ignition w/ Accel 8.8mm wires. Optima red top, Borla header going to a high flow Edelbrock stainless steel muffler, Procomp 4" suspension lift w/ ProComp es3000 shocks. Stainless steel brakelines and a 2" bodylift. 33x12.50 BFG AT KO's. Hella offroad headlights w/PIAA superwhite bulbs 80w/80w. 2 Hella 500 fog beam w/ PIAA superwhite bulbs 50w. Carr roto lightbar w/ 3 Hella 500 driving beam 50w and 2 Hella 3000 offroad lights 100w. Warn 12,000lb winch, AX/15 tranmission conversion and misc other stuff.

[CJay]

Thanks for the input, guys. I don't like the idea of dropping $1600+ for the Mopar EFI, but you get what you pay for, I guess. I'll keep you updated...

[Snowtow]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ground Pilots:
I'm really glad I choose the Mopar kit because I can do the 4.0 head conversion from Clifferd perfomance and gain just from the head alone about 120 hp. Add the efi and (from what I have read)it will fit and get the whole thing close to 300hp.
</font>

How much horsepower just from the head change? I think you have one too many digits there. If the head alone was good for 120 hp by itself you would see everybody making this change. That's almost a 100% increase over stock. No head produces that kind of increase in volumetric efficiency. A 258 which produced 300 hp would have to have major internal massaging ($$$$$$). Whoever quoted these numbers to you is selling snake oil.

[Ground Pilots]

I did'nt say it was true, when they said that I had the same reaction. The kit that they installed was a built 4.0 head from Clifferd roller rockers, valve job ect..
I did forget to say they also put in a bigger cam as part of the kit. Yeah, I don't know if I beleave it to. It made me wonder!
CJay,
$1,600.00 is not a bad price I paid $1,700.00
for my MPI kit

[Snowtow]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ground Pilots:
I did'nt say it was true, when they said that I had the same reaction. The kit that they installed was a built 4.0 head from Clifferd roller rockers, valve job ect..
I did forget to say they also put in a bigger cam as part of the kit. Yeah, I don't know if I beleave it to. It made me wonder!
</font>

If your info is questionable to you, post it as questionable because some people don't know any better and will take your word for it. Remember, there are a lot of rookies on this site. Bad information is worse than none at all.

[Bama]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Snowtow:
If your info is questionable to you, post it as questionable because some people don't know any better and will take your word for it. Remember, there are a lot of rookies on this site. Bad information is worse than none at all.</font>

Hold on a second here. If that were the case, then nobody sould EVER post any information on HP gains from modifications without the "questionable" flag in front of it.

It's ALL relative, completely market driven, and terribly bad science. Even if you take it and put it on a Dynamo, there are STILL PLENTY of factors that you have to take into account that have a driect effect on the HP results. Is the dynamo calibrated correctly? Was there a calibration change from the first test to the second test? What was the temprature on the first test vs. the temperature of the second test. What's the humidity? Did you use the same gas to air mixture? Was the engine at the same running temperature? etc, etc, etc.

For most Dyno runs to be reasonably accurate you need to do SEVERAL runs in climate controlled conditions over the course of several days with several different test automobiles and take a mean of all your results. Yes that is expensive and yes NOBODY does that. They make a couple of runs, take their best numbers, put it in their marketing materials and slap a disclaimer of "your actual results may vary" in tiny print at the bottom.

In GP's defense, the show "Trucks" said that Clifford claimed that their 4.0 head conversion for the 258 with cam shaft, etc, etc would gain you as much as 120 HP with a fuel injection upgrade. Is that on the high side? Probably. However, it's no more questionable than Jacobs, K&N, Turbo City or any other aftermarket manufacturer claiming x HP gains from their products.


------------------
Y2K Black TJ Sahara, 4.0L 5 Speed, D44 Rear w/ Trac-Lok Differential, 31x10.5 Goodyear MT's, Catz Landmaster Fog lights, Hella Headlight conversion with PIAA Ultra white bulbs and a Rancho RS9000 Steering Stablizer. More mods on the way!

ROLL TIDE ROLL!!!

[Snowtow]

Bama I totally agree with you. However you are taking what I say in a different context than what I intended. If you will re-read Ground Pilots' original post he stated that the head change will gain120 hp. There's a lot of difference with that number and the variables that you mention. It's completely obvious to me that such an increase would require a lot more than just a head swap and no dyno fudging would inflate the figures to that degree. If someone tells you the world is flat and you question them, would you actually try to get the next person to believe it?

[bigmackloud]

Hey,

i was reading an article about the 4.0L head swap somewhere online the other day but i can't find it again. but i think it mentioned a gain of 40hp from the swap. sounds a bit more reasonable.

later,
bigmac

[Ground Pilots]

Thank you BAMA,
First of all Snowtow I said ABOUT 120hp
Second of all get over yourself, That is just what I have herd and nothing more. If a person is really looking into doing something like that, then I would hope they would do more reserch then just this site alone. I can appreciate your opinion but don't start telling people what they should post, A lot of time people post things that are not totally true but spark a person to look further into the subject he/she are asking about. Plus I'm quoting what a tv show had said about the head conversion and I would really hope thay have most of their ducks in a row before thay ramble out numbers like that. Until I see a Dyno chart I will have to take there word for it. I could be wrong here but the thread here is about fuelinjection not who is telling the truth. Just so you know the Clifferd 4.0 head is built. The stock 4.0 head is well.... stock. I would guess that there is a big difference in the two.

[This message has been edited by Ground Pilots (edited 03-29-2001).]

[Randall Edge]

I have no idea, but Welcome to the board.

------------------
White '00 TJ 4.0 5-speed
Dana 30/44 with 3.73's

Mods:

1.75" spacer lift, 32x11.50 Mud Kings
custom rear bumper, $5 QD's, CB, Hi-lift

Jeep Rater score 197....Hey it's a start

[riskeacj5]

Hello all. This is my first post on this board. I have had the Howell TBI on my CJ since 96 and it works real well. There is a smog legal one available from them now. I did see some dyno numbers on the differant systems not to long ago. A 82 258 CJ7 was used as a test bed and the systems were tried one after the other on the same rig.
258 BBD 72HP(anemic as we all know)
258 Howell 110HP
258 Mopar 115HP
That was with the stock 4.2l head and I think the Mopar system may gain more of an edge with the 4.0l head. I am contemplating the 4.0 head conversion myself. So far I have come up with a fair amount of conflicting information as to exactly what is required. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

------------------
Steve Keaveney 82 CJ5

[Grizzer]

Well, I finally rebuilt my 258 over 2 years ago. Its been a year now since I've installed the "Howell FI" on my 85 CJ. I gained 100 more miles to the tank full of gas! Them carbs. are a pain in the *&%$#*' a$$ Havin' to clean em every year, an never really runin' right "chokin' " on the mountains passes all the time...FI is sweet http://forums.jeepsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif

[CJay]

Okay. Fuel injection it is. Now I just have to decide between the Mopar and the Howell.

Ground Pilots- Have you had any trouble with pinging/detonation on your Mopar system?

Grizzer & riskeacj5- Any complaints/regrets about the Howell?

Thanks again, all.

Jay

[riskeacj5]

The Howell has run without a problem since the day it was installed. I dont know that I would say I felt anything like a 38 HP gain over the BBD but I did see 2mpg road mileage increase. The off road run time per tank on hunting trips went from 3 days to 4. I bought my CJ new in 82 and replace the BBD twice with 4 additional rebuilds, man what a pile of junk.

[CU4WHLN]

OK, I added a 4.0L head (3 angle valve job,no porting)to my 258,and MPI from a stock XJ. Used one of the newer style intakes,a stock 4.0L cam, with a Borla header.Used a Mopar performance computer.And yes, we did some fine tuning. Very happy with it and super reliable.

Dyno numbers: 247 HP and 282 ft lbs. 4 runs on the dyno,after break in. This is flywheel data BTW. Rear wheel numbers will be less!

Buddies have built some 4.5 and 4.7 stoker motors as well, but nobody else has dyno info. But they are more powerful than mine.

------------------
It's not your's until you BLEED on it !

Jeep = Just Empty Every Pocket
A Six Cylinder is a "check valve" for stupid driving on my part !!!

99 TJ 31s & stock; 01 XJ Limited Up Country;
85 CJ-7 Renegade; ARBs (F&R);Warn hubs;4.10s;Superior axles (F&R);258 with 4.0L head; WJ intake;Borla header;EFI; Serpentine belt;upgraded alt/PS systems;Diconnects;OME lift;KC Daylighters; on board air(York); 33" MTRs on 7" stock wheels;Upgraded belts;Supertop with soft doors;homemade bumpers and hooks;Cobra CB;jammin tunes! 53k and no rust ! (few dents)

Next: 4:1 Tera kit and rear discs for the AMC 20

[LEVE]

I've used a Howell TBI on my '83 CJ7 since '95. It has been flawless. One point in the favor of Howell over MOPAR is the ability to tinker with the engine. If you're into engine modification, lifters, cams, valves, etc. that's allowed with at Howell. You can re-program the Howell Eprom for modifications. The MOPAR comptuer Eprom is static and modifications can't be tolerated.

------------------
http://vanevery.homestead.com/files/Off_Road_signiture.jpg

[Jeepz4Ever]

What time is that show on????

[Ground Pilots]

CJay,
I have not had any problems with knocking and pinging. I have no complaints about the kit. It was easy to install also. I think from the sound of it, what ever one you end up installing you will be happy with. Anything is better than dealing with that carb, I still have nightmares about that thing. If you just want your CJ to run better and don't have any plans on build up the 258, save some money and get the Howell kit, the power gain will still be a huge improvment. On the other hand if you wanted to do something like the 4.0 head conversion I know the Mopar kit will fit, or you can run a Jet chip, bigger throttle body, thorttle body spacer, map censers ect...
It all depends on what you want to do to your motor. Does anyone know what options he could do with the Howell kit? Are there any upgrades for the kit? I have also read that the Howell is real easy to work on.

------------------
1989 Jeep Wrangler
4.2ltr w/ Mopar fuelinjection kit and intake. 17" flexlite fan. Jet stage 1 computer chip. Jacobs ignition w/ Accel 8.8mm wires. Optima red top, Borla header going to a high flow Edelbrock stainless steel muffler, Procomp 4" suspension lift w/ ProComp es3000 shocks. Stainless steel brakelines and a 2" bodylift. 33x12.50 BFG AT KO's. Hella offroad headlights w/PIAA superwhite bulbs 80w/80w. 2 Hella 500 fog beam w/ PIAA superwhite bulbs 50w. Carr roto lightbar w/ 3 Hella 500 driving beam 50w and 2 Hella 3000 offroad lights 100w. Warn 12,000lb winch, AX/15 tranmission conversion and misc other stuff.

[This message has been edited by Ground Pilots (edited 03-31-2001).]

[John_5657]

Could you use the Howell fuel injection system with the 4.0 head on the 4.2??
I dont see a problem If the intake manifold fom a 95 4.0 will fit the 4.2 (from the mopar kit) then why couldnt the 4.2 intake manifold fit the 4.0 motor which would mean you could keep the howell fuel injection when you change to the 4.0 head.
JOHN

[CJay]

I haven't seen anything that would lead me to beleive the 4.0l head and a Howell TBI are incompatible.

Despite that, I've decided to go with the Mopar. The Howell, by all accounts, is a great setup. The MPI system appeals to me more, though.

The engine is at the machine shop as I write this. When it comes back, the kit goes on. I can't wait to tear out some of those solenoids and vacuum lines. Not to mention taking a sledgehammer to the Carter...

[Darrell]

Hey Everyone

Does anyone know where the recent thread that tells everything you need to make your own MPI kit? I am looking to buy a used 4.0 head and the complete FI stuff off of it, but I still will need a CPS of some sort and a high pressure electronic fuel pump.

Any leads?? How much painful wiring am I looking at?

Thanks!

D

------------------
89 YJ 258 5sp, 2.5" Skyjacker, 1.25" shackles, 2" bl, 34x9.50 TSL, custom rockers, Mustang seats, CalTops Fastback, custom trunk, stereo stuff WTB: D30/8.8 lockers, bumpers, 4.0 head/manifolds/EFI, etc.
AIM: BostonWrangler89 ICQ: 3954956 Sachem Jeep Page (http://www.technocrew.net/d/jeep) , Lauren (http://www.rememberlauren.com) , NorthEast Jeep Registry form (http://www.geocities.com/dci311/jeepform.html)

[riskeacj5]

I am pretty sure you can get the harness and a CPS thru Hesco. http://www.hescosc.com/

[Clydeglide]

Look here MPI and 4.0

http://www.monsterslayer.com/jeep/Default.htm
l
http://www.visi.com/~bsimon/jeep/mpi_dirs.html



------------------
Clyde
86 CJ7, 258, .060 over, Mopar EFI, T5, D300, Borla, Centerforce, BDS, SSV's, SS Brakes, Hurst, Superior Axles, H4 lites, AE 15X8, 31's,old pics @ <A HREF="http://
http://www.suncoastflatlanders.com/members/mollon_member.htm" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.suncoastflatlanders.com/members/mollon_member.htm</A>

[Darrell]

I am told that the harness is going to be included. The equipment I am getting is from a 97 TJ 4.0 engine.

Looks like I'll still be spending a bit on the fuel pump, thermostat housing, distributor, sensors, hoses and hardware.

I'll have to take the part numbers down to the local Jeep dealer to find out prices.