Crossover Steering for FREE

[YJbogey]

I'm in the process right now of going SOA. One problem I've run into is steering. The draglink is in the way of the passenger side leaf spring. This problem is only made worse when turning right. Also, the angle of the draglink is way too steep.

I looked into some crossover steering solutions. One is the Teraflex Knuckle. It has an extra arm for the draglink built in, but it is $$$. Another is the MORE kit, but it is also $$$. A CHEAP solution is to bend the draglink into a Z to clear the spring, but this is booty fab and unsafe.

So I decided to fab up my own Tera-like knuckle for FREE! I welded part of an old XJ tie rod with some steel to reinforce the Dana 30 knuckle. I also had to lengthen the draglink 3.25". The whole thing worked pretty well. Here are some pics.

Trying to get some ideas of what to do.
pic 1 (http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC04952.JPG)

Welding XJ tie rod piece on.
pic1 (http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC04961.JPG)
pic2 (http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC04966.JPG)

Cutting out cardboard templates for steel reinforcement.
pic1 (http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC04970.JPG)

All welded in.
pic1 (http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC04971.JPG)
pic2 (http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC04973.JPG)

Tire fits perfect.
pic1 (http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC04977.JPG)

Final Pics.
pic1 (http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC04985.JPG)
pic2 (http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC04986.JPG)


I don't have the springs on yet, so the vehicle is about 4" taller now than it will be. After the springs are on, the draglink and tie rod should be about parallel. :mega:

[atomicmoose]

Looks like a decent solution, I wonder how it will hold up under the stress of wheeling it?

[YJbogey]

The steel is 1/4", and the welds are deep. I may go back over it with some more welding rod to beef up the welds some, we'll see.

[atomicmoose]

Have you any plans for a trip soon?

I'm interested to see how you make out. :thup2:

[Road Head]

Looks like it should work well. The only thing I would be concerned about would be the welds breaking.

[YJbogey]

A trip on August 13th is the plan. I'll do a test run this weekend if I get my springs delivered by Friday.

Looks like it should work well. The only thing I would be concerned about would be the welds breaking.

I think so too RH. I know the welds are good and deep, but I'm not an expert in how welds break tho.

[RatherBeJeeping]

Been there, done that. But I built a full cross over.
I did use considerably thicker metal the 1/4" to tie it to the knuckle though

http://absolutjeep.com/knuckle_project/finished2.JPG

[YJbogey]

John, that looks great man! :beerchug:

[jeepik]

thats mine thats pictured

definitely add more metal and more gusseting

i have seen identical setups to yours fail on numerous toyotas

you'd be surprised how much force that tie rod put on the knuckle

[Scott E]

Got life insurance paid in full?? :jawdrop: :shreekz:

[zman]

I have some concerns about welding to cast, but if it holds up you have a nice set up, and alot of extra $$ in your pocket.

zman

[YJbogey]

Got life insurance paid in full??

:rolleyes:


zman, jeepik, I'll look into adding some more beef to it. Maybe another piece of 1/4" plate on the inside and a gusset in the middle on the outside.

[tracyb]

so whats the trick to welding steel to cast iron. do you have to have an arc welder and use a certain type on welding stick or is it fine to just use a mig type welder with regular wire. sorry to bring it a little off topic but i curious how this works.
-bart

[YJbogey]

tracyb, I'm not really sure, maybe one of the other guys here can answer. I've welded to cast MANY times with my 220V arc welder. I always get nice red hot deep welds. The front D30 I have now came from an XJ, and the knuckle was broken clean off where the tie rod connects. I welded it back, and you can't even tell it was broken.


jeepik, how about doing something like this for the extra beef? (1/4" steel)

http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/misc/DSC04971.JPG

http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/misc/DSC04973.JPG

[RatherBeJeeping]

Here's one that's sold by Toys by Troy

http://stu-offroad.com/steering/tbt/steer-05.jpg


http://stu-offroad.com/steering/tbt/steer-02.jpg

[YJbogey]

wow, looks pretty close to mine. Maybe I'm not too far off..

[jeepik]

well here's how John did

it has not broken and i dont think it will, and eventhough its plenty strong i feel like more gusseting could be added for more strength

http://absolutjeep.com/knuckle_project/unifnished1.jpg
http://absolutjeep.com/knuckle_project/unifnished3.jpg

[kwrangln]

While everyone else is patting you on the back for being innovative, I'm going to have to take the high road on this one and say that welds like this should never be associated with a steering system of any kind.
http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC04966.JPG
http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC04971.JPG

Good god man, not only your life but the lives of others on the road depend on a secure steering system on your rig. If you dont know enough about welding to even clean the crap off before striking an arc, then dont attemp to modify a steering system.

Your gusset design does little to nothing to address the side to side stress that will be applied while steering, your gussets are great if your steering arm was seeing verticle stresses, but guess what, its not. A basic understanding of design principals and welding knowlege is required, please do not run this setup on the highway or public streets. If this is a trail only rig, then have a blast, but keep it on the dirt.

Just from looking at these welds I'll say they were run cold and have massive porosity problems due to contamination. While I applaud your thinking outside the box to come up with a solution for your problem, I have to say the execution is below par and not acceptable.

Harsh? Maybe, but I'm not going to blow sunshine up your ass when safety is an issue.

[kwrangln]

so whats the trick to welding steel to cast iron. do you have to have an arc welder and use a certain type on welding stick or is it fine to just use a mig type welder with regular wire. sorry to bring it a little off topic but i curious how this works.
-bart

Cast can be welded with a normal electrode, but a high nickle content electrode is preferred. Either way, cast is very sensative to pre and post heating to avoid stress buildup in the heat affected zone during cooling which will lead to cracking in the welded area.

[JeepCrawler98]

While everyone else is patting you on the back for being innovative, I'm going to have to take the high road on this one and say that welds like this should never be associated with a steering system of any kind.
http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC04966.JPG
http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC04971.JPG

Good god man, not only your life but the lives of others on the road depend on a secure steering system on your rig. If you dont know enough about welding to even clean the crap off before striking an arc, then dont attemp to modify a steering system.

Your gusset design does little to nothing to address the side to side stress that will be applied while steering, your gussets are great if your steering arm was seeing verticle stresses, but guess what, its not. A basic understanding of design principals and welding knowlege is required, please do not run this setup on the highway or public streets. If this is a trail only rig, then have a blast, but keep it on the dirt.

Just from looking at these welds I'll say they were run cold and have massive porosity problems due to contamination. While I applaud your thinking outside the box to come up with a solution for your problem, I have to say the execution is below par and not acceptable.

Harsh? Maybe, but I'm not going to blow sunshine up your ass when safety is an issue.

x2 - not to mention it doesnt look like you cleaned anything really before welding (and I'm not talking about wiping off grease with a rag); it's higly likely those welds have been contaminated and their integrity compromised.

[lilgreenjeepyj]

I wouldn't drive it that way, and I sure hope someone around me isn't driving on that either. Sorry, but the welds don't look to hot. Shoot the paint and dirt are still on the steel. I would have at least ground everything down to nice clean steel. Great idea, but not so hot on the execution. Scary stuff :( :eek:

[LeadFoot]

Great idea, bad excution. I only have a stick A/C welder, and those welds are a dead give away of poor prep work. Every time I try to make a short cut, those "welds" happen. I always grind the metal down to bare steel before I weld. Call as you will, but those are NOT hot welds. A hot weld would be close to flush with the surfaces of the metal you are joining together. Like stated before, your bracing is very stout for vertical force - but your gonna see all side loads in that set up. I will agree that side, vertical, and upside welding is MUCH more difficult with a stick rather than a mig, but there is no reason you couldn't have just tacked everything on, then taken the knuckle off, and position the knuckle so that the surface you are welding on is flat to make it a thousand times easier to weld.

I would have daring doubts that the metal set up you have now would hold if your welds were 100% perfect, but with no side gussets and those welds - no way. Not is it not safe for you and your passengers, but also the thousands you encounter every day on the street. Even on the trails, what if your doing downhill and lose steering? Think of the many times losing steering would make your ass pucker. My 87YJ is a pure trail beater, and anyone that knows me knows I am a hardcore cheap ass. And even I forked out the money to have my pass knuckle milled drilled and tapped for a flat arm. Maybe if it was a hi lift mount, but steering is NOT a section of a rig to cheap out on.

[Joe Dillard]

Whoa - I didn't read this thread till just now......and now that I have, I gotta agree with those who mentioned that the welds and weld prep work are not up to snuff.

No offence to you intended - I respect your desire to provide ideas and input towards helping to make our hobby better, and more enjoyable.

Whenever welding cast - it's a good practice to preheat the welding area depending on a few factors (plus other critical items to consider while selecting the welding type rod and method).

Don't take my work for it though. :) Read about it here:

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/castironpreheat.asp

Here are a few pics of my junk where welding cast to steel was done and turned out nicely IMHO.

http://www.fototime.com/8341DFB4488813C/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/69094E081F6D8C9/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/5EEEA068978EF4F/standard.jpg

[LeadFoot]

That didn't turn out nice Joe.



That's artwork.

[Joe Dillard]

That didn't turn out nice Joe. That's artwork.
Thanks for the kind feedback. :)

[YJbogey]

Thanks for the replies everyone. No offense taken of any sort. That's why I posted it.. to see what everyone had to say. :D

I understand that it is easy to criticize welds, especially welds from an ARC welder. Even tho they aren't pretty, the welds are hot and deep.

Your gusset design does little to nothing to address the side to side stress that will be applied while steering, your gussets are great if your steering arm was seeing verticle stresses, but guess what, its not. A basic understanding of design principals and welding knowlege is required, please do not run this setup on the highway or public streets. If this is a trail only rig, then have a blast, but keep it on the dirt.
What is the best way to make the new arm stronger? Where does it need reinforcement for horizontal forces?

Also understand, my Jeep is still on jack stands with no springs. I still have plenty of time to make changes and post results before it sees the street.

[YJbogey]

I updated my other pics..

http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/misc/DSC04971.JPG

http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/misc/DSC04973.JPG

Will this work for beefing it up?

[YJbogey]

Another idea..

http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/misc/DSC04970.JPG

[RatherBeJeeping]

That's boxing it, not gusseting to where the force will be. Go back and look at the ones I did for Jeepik. See the 1/4" plate pieces facing the inside? That's a gusset to add strength to where the load will be, along the plane of the force applied.

Oh, and all that was done with an ARC. Compare the welds. I've got a GREAT welder here that did them (I'm a hack)

[wurz]

Joe, i second the statement about your welds, in no way should you even be allowed to call those welds. PURE ARTWORK. beautiful.

[Tfritz]

Joe is that TIG welded? Sure looks smooth.

[Joe Dillard]

Joe is that TIG welded? Sure looks smooth.
:yup:

wurz, Thanks! :)

[fatkid1082]

:yup:

wurz, Thanks! :)

you need your own fan club, action figure, trading cards...and a tee shirt wouldn't hurt :hah:

[kwrangln]

If you really want to know how to fix that knuckle so that it is safe, then start with removing it, attaching it to a length of chain and using it as an anchor for a johnboat. Then go to a junkyard and find a jeep WJ to get the knuckles off of, and swap them onto your front end.

http://www.shutterweb.com/photos/albums/userpics/normal_WJ%20Swap%20003.jpg

There are write ups on the web for the swap, you'll gain a knuckle with a higher drag link attachment point that is factory engineered and designed , and as a bonus will get bigger brakes to help counter the larger tires your doing the lift to fit.

Welding and fabricating has been part of my job description for over a decade now and no way would I attempt to fashion a high steer arm like that for my own vehicle or anyone elses, the risks far outweigh the benefits.

As for critisizing your welds, thats easy, even from pictures. If one of my guys brought me a project looking like that it would be thrown away and he would start over. Yes, just from a visual inspection. If it cant pass a visual inspection there is no way I'm going to take the time to do a die penetrant test on it, whats the point. Would you take the time to check torque on lug nuts when you could tell that the wheel was put on backwards? Even with an arc welder, your puddle should be even and consistant, flowing evenly into the base metal at the toe of the weld.

Please review the following thread CLICK HERE (http://www.jeepaholics.com/support/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=28700&SearchTerms=steering) as it is quite similar to what you've attempted here and goes into some detail as to why its a bad idea. Just wanted you to know that its not just a few of us that consider fabricating a steering arm in this manner to be unacceptable for any use.

[YJbogey]

That's boxing it, not gusseting to where the force will be. Go back and look at the ones I did for Jeepik. See the 1/4" plate pieces facing the inside? That's a gusset to add strength to where the load will be, along the plane of the force applied.
Since the draglink arm on mine is directly over the tie rod arm, I'm don't think the gussets would merit the same strength increases like in the one you made for Jeepik. The gussets there strengthen the new arm to the vertical piece (not to the knuckle). I already have one gusset on mine already in the front where most of the horizontal force would be applied, and it is connected to the knuckle. Thanks for the feedback RatherBeJeeping, I appreciate it. :clapping:

Here are some pics of the new "beef". :mega:

Inside (pic1 (http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC04994.JPG)) (pic2 (http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC05004.JPG)) (pic3 (http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC05008.JPG))

Outside (pic1 (http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC04997.JPG)) (pic2 (http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC05001.JPG)) (pic3 (http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC05007.JPG))

Final (pic1 (http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC05012.JPG)) (pic2 (http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC05016.JPG)) (pic3 (http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC05020.JPG)) (pic4 (http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC05024.JPG)) (pic5 (http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC05022.JPG))

[YJbogey]

There are write ups on the web for the swap, you'll gain a knuckle with a higher drag link attachment point that is factory engineered and designed , and as a bonus will get bigger brakes to help counter the larger tires your doing the lift to fit. If this doesn't work out, that will be a good option.

As for critisizing your welds, thats easy, even from pictures. If one of my guys brought me a project looking like that it would be thrown away and he would start over. Yes, just from a visual inspection. If it cant pass a visual inspection there is no way I'm going to take the time to do a die penetrant test on it, whats the point. Would you take the time to check torque on lug nuts when you could tell that the wheel was put on backwards? Even with an arc welder, your puddle should be even and consistant, flowing evenly into the base metal at the toe of the weld. I totally agree. I'm not saying visually mine are the best, but they aren't bad welds.. especially like those in the thread you just equated my steering arm too (a bit extreme, but I get your point). I've welded plenty, and I know when my welds are penetrating or not, and mine are.

I appreciate the feedback kwrangln, especially from someone who does this for a living. You and others showed me that I needed to do more to strengthen it up. I just don't agree with your visual based stament that the welds are bad (edit: I know that is the only evaluation tool on a BBS). How do the new pics look?

[Scott E]

Did you pre-heat or cover the assembly after welding to allow it to cool VERY slowly? I am guessing not. The problem with welding mild steel to cast is the both heat up and cool at differant rates. When this happens cracks will form. Cracks are bad.....Using a high nickel rod will help but does not mean that cracks won't happen.

What rod did you use? Did you stich it or just let 'em rip and make long beads?

Looking at your updated PICS I would not run that set up.
Also check the link that Kwrangln posted. Lots can be learn there as why not to do this. Also check Joes link on how to weld cast. Real good info.
Bottom line is don't run this set up period! If this was the way to do it then there would have been people doing it for years. Everyone wants a upgrade for cheap. This is not the way to do it.

[lilgreenjeepyj]

Id still never run that and hope no one near me runs anything close to that. Grinding welds aint a good thing either. I don't know much, but I know that grinding bad welds dosn't make them better welds. If its off road only they try it out, otherwise spare those around you and find a different option.


BTW, take a look at Dillards welds if you want an example of proper work for critical parts. Steering is as critical as can be. :eek: :(

[PhatYJ]

If this doesn't work out, that will be a good option.

I totally agree. I'm not saying visually mine are the best, but they aren't bad welds.. especially like those in the thread you just equated my steering arm too (a bit extreme, but I get your point). I've welded plenty, and I know when my welds are penetrating or not, and mine are.

I appreciate the feedback kwrangln, especially from someone who does this for a living. You and others showed me that I needed to do more to strengthen it up. I just don't agree with your visual based stament that the welds are bad (edit: I know that is the only evaluation tool on a BBS). How do the new pics look?

Just clicked on this thread for the first time, and the first thing I was gonna do when I saw your welds was tell you the same thing everyone else has :D

I want to appluad you on your reactions/replies here. I've been doing this web thing for a long time and not too many people take criticism lightly, even whey they know it's constructive criticism.

As for the welding thing, you have the right ideas, just the wrong tools. Get yourself a mig and you'll be set.

[jeepik]

honestly, i think you are on the right track, there are many ways to do things, both right and both wrong

does wrong not work??? not necesarily...bottom line its your jeep and if you feel that it is adequate for your needs then run with it, if you need aproval from all the web welders, then you've come to the right place.

my point is this, if it looks unsafe doesnt mean it isnt, mine looks unsafe as well(although considerably stronger then yours, but it works and works very well

[YJbogey]

Did you pre-heat or cover the assembly after welding to allow it to cool VERY slowly? I am guessing not. The problem with welding mild steel to cast is the both heat up and cool at differant rates. When this happens cracks will form. Cracks are bad.....Using a high nickel rod will help but does not mean that cracks won't happen.

What rod did you use? Did you stich it or just let 'em rip and make long beads? I did not pre-heat. It was 90+ degrees outside, and when striking an arc for about 5 seconds, the area around it heated up decently. Initally, this may not have been best, but I think this helped heat up the welding areas. I didn't use the nickel rod, but from people here (like you) and others I talked to, that would have been a better option for this. I didn't make long beads, so I guess I stiched it. I didn't let it get too cool, and I didn't let it get too hot. I did not cover it at the end.

Looking at your updated PICS I would not run that set up. I think I strengthed the knuckle considerably in the new pics (even the stock tie rod arm extension). Is your opinion based now on the welds or the structure?

Grinding welds aint a good thing either. I didn't grind the welds as you are making it out. I used a LOT of welding rod, and over-filled some of the areas to ensure maximum fill and penetration. I see no problem in grinding off extra weld if the penetration and weld below is deep and thick. Plus, when using an ARC welder, I need to make sure it is weld and not flux.

BTW, take a look at Dillards welds if you want an example of proper work for critical parts. Steering is as critical as can be. Joe's welds looks great! He has better welding tools for the job. I'm using a 20 year old 220V farm welder. :D I'm not expecting professional looking fab stuff. I do expect my welds to penetrate and hold tho. I've welded (and watched enough welders) to know what is good penetration and what is not.

This isn't directed at you, just a general comment. People can lay a nice looking weld and have it not penetrate, and people can lay a not so nice looking weld and have it penetrate well. It's too hard for you to criticize my welds on purely how neat and nice they look (this excludes kwrangln and other who do this for a living). Unless you are watching me lay the weld, it doesn't carry much weight. I think it is convenient for some to say the welds won't hold because they don't look pretty.


I want to appluad you on your reactions/replies here. I've been doing this web thing for a long time and not too many people take criticism lightly, even whey they know it's constructive criticism.

As for the welding thing, you have the right ideas, just the wrong tools. Get yourself a mig and you'll be set PhatXJ, I totally agree. I've had my eyes set on a Millermatic 210 for a long time now. Maybe in the next couple months. :D


I appreciate everyones feedback. It livens up JU a little bit. I think the general concensus now is that the welds might not hold up. Before I installed the axle, the tie rod piece on the knuckle was cracked clean off. I welded this back on, completely filled it and penetrated it with weld (see pic here (http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20041010/DSC03581.JPG)). Looking at it, you wouldn't even know it was broken. This has held up through many abusive wheeling trips. I'm confident the welds will hold with this new setup. If that is the only negative feedback now, consider it duly noted. ;)

I learned some new things from this, so it's all good. :thup2:

[tehmidget]

As for the welding thing, you have the right ideas, just the wrong tools. Get yourself a mig and you'll be set.


Welding cast with an arc welder is perfectly fine as long as you do it right. A good welder with a good Ni rod can do really nice work on cast.

[PhatYJ]

Welding cast with an arc welder is perfectly fine as long as you do it right. A good welder with a good Ni rod can do really nice work on cast.


I agree, but you can also do the same with a mig on cast, plus you have the best type of welder for everything else.

Arc welders are nice, but I like technology better.

[lilgreenjeepyj]

Proper weld penetration should leave a relatively flush surface, not gobs of weld like the first pictures. If you want some more opinions of "pros" post the picts up on pirate and see what reactions and comments you get. Im sure it will be more of the same. Clean smooth deep welds are possible with an arc, those are not. Like I said before, please avoid south Ohio for the sake of my family there. Welding bumpers and skids with welds like that is one thing, welding up steering components like that is a whole different ball game. Shell out the cash and get safe components and save yourself the trouble and consider the safety of those around you. Adding more welding rod to a bad weld isn't going to help either. At the very least, clean the surfaces better next time.

[YJbogey]

lilgreenjeepyj, let's just agree to disagree about the welds. They aren't "smooth and clean", but they are good deep welds for sure. The mating surfaces pooled properly and were mixed together with good penetration. I did take people's suggestions and clean the areas better before I welded on the second go-at-it. My concern at this point is not whether the welds are good (because they are), it is if the cast steel area around the weld is strong enough (no cracks, etc).

Some people have had some real helpful constructive comments that got me thinking and changing some things. You seem to be on the "critical with no constructive advice" end of things. It's cool to tell me my stuff is crap, good, or whatever. I'd appreciate it tho if you back up your comments with something to help me improve things. It's just hard for me to figure out if you are bashing it because it's ok to since other people have, or you actually really know something useful but just didn't explain your reasons. I'm trying to learn just like many other people here.

[lilgreenjeepyj]

Well Im critical because most of my family lives in Ohio and share the roads with that welding work. I won't back down from that. I did make a suggestion, drop the cash and get a proper high steer soloution. Custom steering isn't something for a backyard mechanic with a "farm welder" to learn on. Im sorry, but my construtive critiscm is to spend the money and do it correctly. We already get a bad enough rap for modifying our vehciles as is. We don't need another example of why not to mod a vehicle. Sure your welds may hold forever and never break, but it doesn't make your solution the proper answer or the correct way to modify a vehicle. Shoot spend the $40 and hit a junk yard and get outter from a Grand and be done with it. No sketchy welds. Im sorry if Im so adament, but as I said, my family shares the roads with you and Id hate to lose a family member to someone learning/enginering a solution like yours. Its times like these that I really wish Ohio had mandatory vehicle inspections like other states.

[RatherBeJeeping]

http://www.jeepaholics.com/support/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=41961

[YJbogey]

I'm going to add one more gusset tomorrow to help with the horizontal forces.
http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/misc/DSC05018.JPG

[wallysheata]

I've stayed out of this discussion cause my mother always told me if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all :D

However, after my expereince last weekend of sheering the 4 grade 8 bolts off my kingpin knuckle with OUT hydro assist, then welded the high steer arms back on to the cast knuckle to get me off the trail i thought i should interject.

I'm no expert at welding, but welding steel to cast is tricky at best, and requires an increadible amount of prep work and experience to say the least, both of which i'm having a hard time seeing in your work....sorry just speaking the truth. My point is, my set up was ROCK SOLID with grade 8 bolts very tight held in by locktight, and the forces of my steering sheered those clean off. When i got home to tear it appart i ground the welds off on one side, hit it once with a hammer and the entire steering arm popped right off the other 3 sides cause the welds weren't holding. Granted they were done with a stick welder in the field, but they were done by a guy with TONS of experience stick welding who has many levels of welding certifications AND they came out looking far better than yours.

Here's some pics of my mishap. I just want you to think of what kinda of trouble you could get in should that weld fail at 45mph and there's a mother with her 3 kids in the car next to you that your rig slams into and forces off the road into a ditch or into on coming traffic etc...

http://phatserver.net/users/wally/Mottin/Chinamans%20holy%20cross0072.JPG
http://phatserver.net/users/wally/Mottin/Chinamans%20holy%20cross0073.JPG
http://phatserver.net/users/wally/Mottin/Chinamans%20holy%20cross0074.JPG
http://phatserver.net/users/wally/Mottin/Chinamans%20holy%20cross0078.JPG
http://phatserver.net/users/wally/Mottin/Chinamans%20holy%20cross0076.JPG
http://phatserver.net/users/wally/Mottin/Chinamans%20holy%20cross0077.JPG

[PhatYJ]

Wally, you break things that even NASA deem as 'unbreakable', therefore your posts don't count.

:D

[RatherBeJeeping]

Wally, you're my hero :jabspar:

[kwrangln]

Its great that you have so much confidence in your welding ability, but I'm going to have to disagree. Having viewed tons of x-rays of welds to see just what happens when the process is off, dye penetrant testing of welds, and most importantly the visual inspection, let me point out a few things to you.

From this pic.
http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC05001.JPG

Lets begin with the blatantly obvious. Direction of travel on the verticle weld. It is industry standard to perform verticle welds in the uphill direction, yours are downhill. The reasoning behind this is the flux thats melting off the rod as it burns is not immune to gravity and will become entrapped in the molten puddle causing massive porosity. Porosity is the inclusion of elements other than the weld material in the weld, these trapped bubbles of flux, air, paint, etc become almost like perferations that a crack can follow throughout the weld. The puddle spacing is uneven througout, caused by whipping the rod too far ahead of the puddle in order to freeze it so it doesnt droop. Moving the arc too far ahead of the puddle lets the slag freeze as well as the weld, then when you whipped back, the slag covering the now cooler puddle becomes entrapped in the weld, even more porosity.

Now lets move on to your lower horizontal weld. It starts out ok at the left side of the pic, its standing a little proud of the base metal which indicates that it is a cold weld, but overall the shape of the puddle is ok. Move on about an inch and you can see where the weld bead follows the verticle plate more than the horizontal portion of the knuckle, that is incomplete fusion caused by improper work angle, focusing heat unevenly between the two pieces. This point is weak due to low penetration of the knuckle. Right after this you corrected your work angle, and when you did you slowed down your travel speed causing the puddle to be larger than the rest of the weld, this might be ok, but isnt great by a long shot. WHy not? Well, you've already heard about how sensative cast material is to heating and cooling, by slowing your travel speed you've created a hot spot instead of heating the base metal evenly. Right after this you stopped and restarted, but didnt start directly in the crater caused by the previous stop. The crater at the end of a weld tends to have a low spot in the middle of it due to long arcing as you pull the rod away, another weak spot that wasnt reinforced by the beginning of the next bead. Looks like 2 beads right past this point, and the first didnt have the slag cleaned off before the second was laid since I can see a slight slag inclusion right in the middle. At the end is another slag inclusion due to overlaying a previous weld without cleaning it first.

Shall I continue with this one?
http://www.chrr.ohio-state.edu/~bogrees/image/Jeep/20050724/DSC05004.JPG

Yes, another part of my job description is to teach and develop welding skills in junior personnel, so I've had to learn to inspect their work in order to correct their mistakes. Unless you've found some magical way to alter the laws of physics and metalurgy, there is no way you can turn a bubble gum bead into a structural weld.

Seriously, I'm trying all I can in a posative way to get you to not run this. Get another knuckle, and before touching it, get a bunch of scrap steel to practice on and develop your welding skills. Run flat stringer beads untill you can do them with a uniform travel speed (so the bead is a consistant width), uniform motion (so the puddles are evenly spaced), consistant work and lead angles. WHen you can do that flat, then move on to horizontal and verticle. Once you have that down, then give it another shot. Before attempting things like this, imagine what the worst case scenario is if it fails. You said you'd try the WJ knuckle if this didnt work out, how are you going to do that if this doesnt work out while your traveling at highway speed? Try letting go of your steering wheel while taking an exit ramp just to see how its going to feel when this doesnt work out, do you really want to wait for that before using a stronger part?

Thats about my say on the matter, please do us a favor and give someone you know the address to this thread, so they can update it when things go wrong if you are unable to do so.

[kwrangln]

Wally, were your arms bolted on or using studs with conical washers? Currently mine are bolted, but before it gets wheeled I'm swapping arms to run the studs and conical washers to properly locate everything. Looks like a good time to upgrade. Running a similar setup to yours, behind the knuckle tie rod, with the addition of a hydro ram, figure sooner is better than later.

[wallysheata]

Wally, were your arms bolted on or using studs with conical washers?

They are now, i just ordered some Chrome Molly ARP Studs with the cone washers from Dedenbear for approx $80. There was a great discussion the other day here on the colorado 4x4 board (http://colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=40579) regarding studs vs bolts. As you'll see, most everyone who replied has broken their bolts, many have even broken stock studs. MInd you i have only had this set up since april, and DO NOT run ram assist. I do wheel hard every weekend in the summer but still, i don't like $hit breaking.

Back on topic, Krangln, :thup2: on your response, i don't have the technical background you do to point out what's wrong with that set up, but i do have the real world experience of what fails :D And that backyard bootyfabolicious hack job will for sure fail sooner rather than later :teehee:

[YJbogey]

kwrangln and wally, thanks for the help. I gave it a shot but I guess I'm in over my head. I appreciate you guys taking the time to explain things, especially you kwrangln. I've decided to opt for a better setup. You guys know your stuff, so I will go with your advice.

Is the WJ knuckle setup my best bet? Or should I just order the Teraflex knuckle? I'm not into dumping money into the 30, but if it what needs to be done, ok. If you guys could give me a direction to start researching in, that'd be cool.

[RatherBeJeeping]

WJ stuff rocks. Better brakes and cross over.
PM a guy named MJR here on JU. He's got loaded calipers and rotors that have been turned. You just have to drill your pattern in to them. Cheap too.

[kwrangln]

Your question got me to searching and from what I managed to find, the teraflex knuckle looks like the best bet as the rest of the systems retain the stock knuckle. I have no idea of cost or real world results as I havn't messed with dana 30 stuff in years. Being designed and cast as one unit instead of adding on the existing knuckle which is already of questionable strength is much better in my opinion. The WJ setup looks good as well, but I'm not sure if it will raise your drag link enough to clear the leaf spring. Maybe someone can chime in that has done it with leaf springs to verify.
http://www.teraflx.com/productImages/990.jpg

I'm glad you've changed your mind, and you should be commended for taking comments as a learning experience instead of personal attacks. Post up and let us know what you end up going with and how it works out.

[RatherBeJeeping]

The WJ works (http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ratherbejeeping/detail?.dir=2c79&.dnm=3e4f.jpg&.src=ph) by flipping one hole and using the stock WJ TRE's

[lilgreenjeepyj]

I was thinking more like when it fails on 270 at 65mph.

One other question for you yjbogey, why not move the tie rod while you are at it? Seems like it would be worth the effort to at least flip it over for some extra clearance at least.



Needless to say, Wally, that looks like a great spot to break. What are your plans for the future? Studs or bolts?

[James (Cubby) Culbertson]

YJBogey,
I just happened to see this thread today and read the entire thing. You should be commended for taking the initiative to try to fab something up yourself. Oftentimes, the satisfaction of building something yourself clouds judgement as to whether it's truly functional (or in this case, and more importantly, SAFE). It appears you've overcome this, with a bit of "encouragement" from the board. I hate when I build something only to discover down the road it's a POS but that's life. Chalk this up to experience and learn from the mistakes. Now go build some bumpers :)

Cheers,
cc

[Rock WoRM]

I appreciate you guys taking the time to explain things, . I've decided to opt for a better setup. You guys know your stuff, so I will go with your advice.
.
YJbogey... this has been an awesome thread. A great example of guys sharing tech. info. I am VERY impressed with your attitude! :agree:
All too often guys get their feelings hurt or it gets nasty. I too would like to commend you. I also agree that your making the right choise. As we all know, steering is a trickey deal.

Good luck and keep us posted. (no pun intended)


WoRM :bsod:

[MattPascoe]

If you do consider the Tera knuckle, get the knuckle only. The TR & DL Dont work well on a YJ. I spent alot of time trying to make them work and wound up making my own out of DOM and MOOG TRE's. Also, the DL arm on the knuckle is to long and wont allow full left to right steering. I drilled a new hole for the DL and it worked OK:
http://www.solamarconstruction.com/Matt/SOA/DL%20knuckle%20drill.jpg
http://www.solamarconstruction.com/Matt/SOA/DL%20flex%20clearance.jpg

After going the Tera route, I would not recomend it. Great idea, but too many bugs to figure out. I really wish I would have done the WJ knuckle :sniffle: Just the improved braking would make it worth it.

[wallysheata]

YJbogy, you're making the RIGHT call :thup2: I'm sorry if i came off harsh but that set up scared me a LOT. I give you all the props in the world for going out on a limb and giving it your best :pstpst: you have far more skills than i do for sure! You're making a good choice going with some quality knuckles, as i said this is not something you want to skimp on.

As for my issues, i just got down swapping out the grade 8 bolts for some Dedenbear Chrome Molly Studs on my hi steer arms which HOPEFULLY will last....man seems like it just NEVER ends no matter how beefy ya build the suckers......just for you rock worm :bsod:

[lilgreenjeepyj]

As for my issues, i just got down swapping out the grade 8 bolts for some Dedenbear Chrome Molly Studs on my hi steer arms which HOPEFULLY will last....man seems like it just NEVER ends no matter how beefy ya build the suckers......just for you rock worm :bsod:

Id like to hear more about said dedenbear Chromo studs??? Sounds nice and beafy.

[Joe Dillard]

This input is meant for those looking for ideas. :) Yes - it's not a true HS, it's better known as crossover.

This is how MORE does it. MORE does sell just the bracket IIRC. Notice the double sheer. Chris Overacker (code5337 here), designed a nice product & I have zero complaints.

If someone was energetic & has good fab skills - it could be closely duplicated.

http://www.fototime.com/7B383E3EB028EC1/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/2A413361453FD89/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/EF858E3101F1475/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/094908BC73B98AC/standard.jpg

[serbojeeper]

YJbogey, I'll buy your old welded one, I think you did a great job!
(you don't work for boeing do you?)

[YJbogey]

kwrangln, thanks again. :jammin: If you don't mind, I will prolly ask you some more questions about welding in the future.

RatherBeJeeping, that WJ setup looks sick. :clapping: That is exactly what I had envisioned from the beginning if you can believe that or not. haha. I really like the way it looks. I found a good amount of info on it so far. If you have tips, please post them. If I use the WJ calipers and rotors, do I just need to drill out the rotor to 5 on 4.5? I read that spacers are needed on the unibearing? BTW, my Dana 30 is from a '98 XJ.

lilgreenjeepyj, I haven't seen too many setups like this, most seem to be crossover based, which is fine because I plan on making a beefy tie rod from DOM. Any ideas on this? I'd like to keep it as cheap as possible, but still safe.

James, yea, I guess I got too attached to it (even tho it's dumb and I shouldn't.. ego maybe?). I really wasn't seeing it objectively. But when I got people telling me with experience and good intentions that it's bad, I have to listen. After all, that's why I posted it in the first place, to get opinions, bad or good, and make a decision. :D

Rock WoRM, I totally agree, there has been a TON of tech as a result of this which is way cool. :clapping:

Wally, I'd rather you come off harsh now about it than later! :D I really respect you and many of the others opinions around here. Don't feel like you have to wait to post because you don't have anything nice to say. People like me want opinions from the top dogs like yourself.

Matt, thanks, you pretty much answered every question I had about the Tera Knuckle. I always wondering why they extended the arm so far out, and it turns out it needs to be drilled in some. I would think moving it in closer, like you did, is safer too.

Joe, thanks for pics of the MORE steering setup. We're really covering a ton of tech regarding Dana 30 steering!



Sorry for the long reply, just a lot of replies needed. So far, I'm leaning toward the WJ setup. I really like the way it looks, and it looks very doable. Like Matt suggested, I plan on making a new draglink and tierod out of DOM. This should be much stronger than my current stock ones.

My plan for today is to call around to some local yards and see if anything is available. What is a reasonable amount to pay for the WJ knuckles? calipers? Later, after that, I'm going to pull my current knuckles off (if only to cleanse myself ;) )

Do I need to just get a ball joint press/puller from Autozone to do this?

[YJbogey]

Wow.. I just called a couple yards and stealerships. Every yard I called won't sell just the knuckles, only the entire axle assembly (which makes sense). I called the stealership, $292 for the PS, $285 for the DS. Wow.. :D I still haven't even touched on brakes or the spacers yet. If I went the Tera route with a custom draglink and tierod, I would think it'd be under $400 total. hmmmmmm.


Check this thread for my final solution..
http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5735566

[kwrangln]

Lots of info here CLICK FOR LINK (http://65.42.106.152/forums/showthread.php?t=660940)

Search the sale section, and carparts.com in addition to the local yards.

[RatherBeJeeping]

You'll need to weld on the spacers from JKS to make the WJ knuckles work. You could buy a complete 2WD front end to save $$ since it uses the same parts you'll need and won't have much that you can't use.
Barring that there's a guy here on JU with a screen name of MJR that has complete loaded calipers and turned rotors (yes, just drill your pattern in them) for cheap.
Note that my drag link was flipped too.
Beyond the steering upgrade, the job this will do on your braking makes it hella nice of an upgrade. On mine I run the JKS tie rod and drag link (.250 wall sleeved on the inside with .250 wall) and the stock WJ TRE's

[LeadFoot]

New is about $130 from 4wd IIRC.