running without shocks, obsevations, and dt3000 questions

[fordtech]

Ive been sick of the rough ride on my YJ for quite awhile now. I always contributed it to the springs (rough country), but was suspicious of the shocks (heckethorn rear, rancho 5k's front).
Saturday I pulled all four shocks. First thing I did was to push on the bumpers.... It was soooo easy to compress the springs! Then I tryed moving the shocks through their travel by hand... One thing I found out was that the rancho 5000's are very easy to compress, but are hard to extended! Im not sure what this did for the ride. The rears (hydros ?) where pretty hard to move in both directions. I took it for a drive, it rode great, alittle bouncy, but soft. So the springs really arent that bad.
Right now I have another set of slightly used heckethorn nitros (?, they expand on their own) These are really hard to move in both directions.

Ive pretty much decided to go with Doetsch DT3000's.
I know this isnt a great question but, how hard are they to cycle by hand?? How much effort do they take to move.
Where is the cheapest place to buy? Most places have them for 120 for all 4.
How are the DT0's? Is it worth saving 20 bucks going with them?

Im going to use their 4 inch lift shocks.... between the current shock measurements and measurements from flexing, they will work fine with some travel to spare.

If these shocks are as soft as people say, I may have to hook the swaybar back up! I dont run a swaybar, thats how stiff the Heckethorns are.

[Janster]

Rancho shocks SUCK!!!

They're great when ya first put 'em on, but they don't last long at all. I've gone through so many Ranchos till I finally stopped buying the darn things.

I've used DT3000 and they're OK....
We took 'em off only after 1.5 years and they showed some wear.

I'm currenly running DT Prerunner shocks.
Not sure of their longevity yet. But the shafts are much thicker than the DT3000.

[chef]

while we're on the topic of shocks, if rancho's don't last too long, any suggestions for a moderately priced adjustable that lasts long or is consumer rebuildable or comes with a warranty to run in the rear and a fixed shock for the front? i want to run a tera style rear upper bar and keep the shocks firm, but be somewhat soft up front.

[dixiemudder323]

this is a good thread because i have Rough Countrys 3" lift and the heckthorn shocks are the biggest piece of crap ever. I was thinking of going with rustys shocks. a buddy of mines got them on his and they ride great and flex pretty well to i guess.

[MattPascoe]

They cost twice as much ($68 ea) but bilstiens sure ride good. Had them with stock springs and now with OME's and ride quality is just not an issue.

Drove a stock TJ a while back and my lifted YJ rides smoother.

Also, Bilstiens are available with up to 14" of travel if you can use it:brows:

MP

[fordtech]

Ya, I was kinda suprised that the rancho's had like a 30/70 split in rebound and compression. I guess I understand the theory, but I dont think it works well.

Janster, Arent the pre-runners really soft..... too soft? I think I read they are for dual shock applications? CORRECTION: I just read on the DT site, that they are stiffer than the 3000's.

Dixie, I think any soft shock will help the Rough Country springs ride nice. Ill look at rustys..... any other votes for them?

Matt, the DT's for 4 inch lift have 12.5 inch of advertised travel (29.5-17.0). My measurements have me with about 1-2 inchs to spare in each direction. Im only using about 8-10 inch of travel up front. I guess if I had revolvers, 12-14" would be in order!

Anyone got a source for good pricing on DT's?

Thanks for the feedback!

[Joe Dillard]

-=- originally posted by fordtech -=-
Anyone got a source for good pricing on DT's?
DT is literally walking distance from my house, but I doubt they'll undercut what a distributors price wound be. I can swing by & check with them if you'd like.

Do you know what part numbers you are looking for?

As an ex-employee for Rancho, I can also atest for some peoples dissatisfaction of the way certain types of Rancho's work. We would litterally get hundreds back that were either failed under warranty, or back from our distributors due to customers dissatisfaction with the product they purchased. On the other hand, lots of people were highly satisfied with the better designed shocks.

As an explaination as to why there are 2 different "feels" to the compression & rebound of the shocks; we engineered them with "2 types" of internal valving. Within this "2 types" there are actually 3 & higher steps to the valving for different strokes during the shocks movement within it's cycle.

The valve heads are machined to allow a certain amount of oil through the chambers in either direction, plus various thin washers are placed within the 2 directions of oil flow to dampen (slow down and control the transfer of) fluid across the tubes chamber. Stacking of the washers & their size, coupled with the machining of the valve head, mostly dictate how effective the shock will be. This, and the type fluid used and if nitrogen gas is added to the equasion, will give the end results of how the ride will be controlled given a certain type leaf, coil springs, or torsion bar dynamic spring rate characteristic is.

My $0.02

[asenft]

OME shocks ride very nicely also. I just put a set on my RE 4.5" XD lift, and it rides like a dream!!!

[fordtech]

I forgot you were at rancho Joe!
I understand the theory is to make it soft on compression to soften the ride, and harder on rebound to control spring movement. It just didnt work well!!

What do you think of the Doetsch from a 'been in the buisness' angle?

Im looking at 3386 (f), and 3265 (r). If you could find out what 'factory direct' pricing is that would be great! I would take 'scratch and dent' too. Just less (more like, NO) dent please! Tell them Ill display their stickers and say nice things about the product! Think that will work?! i appreciate it Joe!

asenft- I wish I could afford OME. I can barely swing the DT's, we have a baby on the way, and I need a windshield frame too. $$$ The baby is one of the reasons I would like to soften the ride.

Thanks again!!!

[jeepik]

I have the DT3000's up front. you get what you pay for, they are all right, same shock pretty much as the Rancho 5000. easy to extend hard to compress

mine are 2 years old and are still working fine.

[asenft]

-=- originally posted by fordtech -=-

asenft- I wish I could afford OME. I can barely swing the DT's, we have a baby on the way, and I need a windshield frame too. $$$ The baby is one of the reasons I would like to soften the ride.

Thanks again!!!


Ahh, well good luck with whatever you go with and with your baby!! :beerchug:

[JeffsJeep04]

I went from RS5000's with stock front leaves/add-a-leaves rear to a RE 2.5" lift with the dt3000's all around. The new setup rides MUCH MUCH better. I'm really impressed with them, and honestly this is the first time I've ever heard anything bad about them.

[OB_WAN]

I'm kinda surprised people have so much negativity about Ranchos. I've been running a pair of RS9000s for a few years now and they still respond well to the manual valve adjustments. As for RS5000s, yeah, they're real stiff and only help on trail rigs or on a big heavy SUV.

I've been running RS5000s up front and RS9000s(on 2nd to softest setting) in the back for a while and have noticed that the back is the key identifier of a stiff vs soft ride. I use the 5000s up front to keep the steering stiff(and because they were cheap when I needed them) but am strongly thinking of just going with DT3000s all around and just slowing down.

Any info from the guys running DT3000s regarding the variable valve control? It would be nice to have something in the medium to soft range onroad but really stiffening up when rockcrawling.

[MattPascoe]

Any info from the guys running DT3000s regarding the variable valve control? It would be nice to have something in the medium to soft range onroad but really stiffening up when rockcrawling.

Why would you want them stiff for crawlin?

Not flaming, just curious. Never heard that before.

MP

[JeffsJeep04]

I think he means more a trail rig, the stiff shocks put the wheels back down faster if you are moving along...I'd rather have softer shocks to conform at low speed.

[Joe Dillard]

-=- originally posted by MattPascoe -=-
Why would you want them stiff for crawlin?
Alot of folks prefer the setting to be hard when rock crawling because when you go up a steep incline that has bumps along the way, you want the most shock dampening to occur so that the leafs or coils don't "spring" back into position quickly. If they do, this may cause you to rollover backwards or force you into an undesirable line.

Think of it like this: There's relatively little weight on the front of the Jeep when doing steep inclines. Now imagine you are climbing a steep incline & there are dips/potholes/jagged rocks etc along the way. If the shocks are set at a "soft" setting, they will allow the springs to collapse & rebound rapidly, possibly putting you on your lid. Keep in mind, you are going VERY slow.

There are other reasons too, but this is one of the most common.

[Joe Dillard]

-=- originally posted by fordtech -=-
What do you think of the Doetsch from a 'been in the buisness' angle?

Im looking at 3386 (f), and 3265 (r). If you could find out what 'factory direct' pricing is that would be great! I would take 'scratch and dent' too. Just less (more like, NO) dent please! Tell them Ill display their stickers and say nice things about the product! Think that will work?! i appreciate it Joe!
I got out of the business prior to Doetsch introducing their products, so I have no real world experiance compareing theirs to our stuff. I do however, have experiance testing Rancho, Monroe, Bilstein, Gabriel, Rough Country, KYB, Mickey Thompsons & a few others.

Mickey was another one of my employers that I had the pleasure of working for. Boy oh boy, I gotta turn back the clock a few revolutions to remember those days......ahhhhh. :)

Back on-topic... :) I stopped by Doetsch today on my way home. Regretfully there sales guy was out of the office prior to my arrival. I was greeted by a NICE looking office employee that took my information & will pass it along to the sales guy. Perhaps she just wanted my phone number! :brows: :clapping: :beerchug:

My intensions are for tomorrow to stop by a little earlier & get a "full tour" of their facility, then pass along info as I gather it for priceing etc.

Here's what the front of their shop looks like:
http://www.fototime.com/7777B879D4D4694/standard.jpg

[flashfoto]

Joe,

I Emailed them off their web site link, last week. I gave them my info & asked to send me the part number's I should use & where their closest dealer was to my home.

So far.....no response!!

While on the subject of test's, what was your opinion of the Hecklethorn's from RC??

[dixiemudder323]

I HAVE THE HECKTHORN SHOCKS. and i am getting rid of them as soon as possible. Im looking for some long travel shocks that are smooth.

[Joe Dillard]

-=- originally posted by flashfoto -=-
Joe, I Emailed them off their web site link, last week. I gave them my info & asked to send me the part number's I should use & where their closest dealer was to my home. So far.....no response!!

While on the subject of test's, what was your opinion of the Hecklethorn's from RC??
What application shocks are you looking for? I have their catalog that they gave me today in front of me. I could look it up for you.

IE: 86-95 YJ with 0-1.5" lift DT3000 fronts=#3282, same spec rears=#3163

The catalog also includes the Doetsch 8000 series Pre-Runner, and the 9000 series Nitrogen.

As an example & keep in mind, our tests were years ago. :) We mounted the RC's on Dale Sextons Off-Road race truck (2wd 700+hp). We had 1 out of the 4 explode (oil was leaking sevearly, average shock oil temperate was in the 475* range. The Rancho's didn't fail under the same circumstances. I'm almost certain that RC doesn't make there shocks in the same fashion as back then. The RC rods were whimpy 3/16" back then, ours were 5/8" chrome hardened.

4 Wheeler Magazine came out with an artical. I believe it was named "The Great Shock Absorber Shoot-Out.

[flashfoto]

Joe,

My new project is a '94 with RC 3" kit. I don't have Pay Pal, so the guy's in Diego won't take my card. That's why I wanted to know who their local dealer was, if any.

I have had the RC set-up on my '88 for a year, with no problem's. So, I ordered the same set-up for the '94. I have their new set of Heck's on my bench & I will measure the shaft in the morning & let you know if they changed.


Thanx for the input & help.

[Joe Dillard]

-=- originally posted by flashfoto -=-
Joe, Thanx for the input & help.
No Problem"O". :beerchug:

[fordtech]

-=- originally posted by flashfoto -=-
Joe,

I Emailed them off their web site link, last week. I gave them my info & asked to send me the part number's I should use & where their closest dealer was to my home.

So far.....no response!!

While on the subject of test's, what was your opinion of the Hecklethorn's from RC??


Heckethorn shocks are my problem......

[OB_WAN]

-=- originally posted by Joe Dillard -=-
Alot of folks prefer the setting to be hard when rock crawling because when you go up a steep incline that has bumps along the way, you want the most shock dampening to occur so that the leafs or coils don't "spring" back into position quickly. If they do, this may cause you to rollover backwards or force you into an undesirable line.

Think of it like this: There's relatively little weight on the front of the Jeep when doing steep inclines. Now imagine you are climbing a steep incline & there are dips/potholes/jagged rocks etc along the way. If the shocks are set at a "soft" setting, they will allow the springs to collapse & rebound rapidly, possibly putting you on your lid. Keep in mind, you are going VERY slow.

There are other reasons too, but this is one of the most common.

That's a good point Joe but I want to add to it :)

When rockcrawling, sometimes you can't go super slow(slippery surface, etc). When you're going just higher then crawl speed and hit a large hole or boulder you can do serious damage to your Jeep with soft shocks. Not only do you have issues with bottoming out(because the shock won't compensate in time), the increased speed of the axle droop/compression can have more strain on driveshaft ujoints, spring hangers, bushings, steering linkage, and other parts, even the frame. I've tried several alternatives and have found the nicest thing to do for my Jeep when crawling is very stiff shocks and lower PSI on the tires.

Unfortunately, if I want to drive it on the road, this means either I get adjustable shocks like the RS9000s(expensive, I'm cheap:)) or find a shock that has variable valve sensing that can recognize and adjust quickly to the difference between onroad and offroad. I'm wondering if the DT3000s carry these characteristics.

Thanks for the question MattPascoe. It was a good one.

edit: one more point for JeffsJeep04. Actually stiffer shocks will let the tire down a lot slower. Will kind of ease the tire in to the hole rather than drop it in.

[Joe Dillard]

Fordtech, I've been busy running errands all afternoon & while doing so, the gal at Doetsch Tech called me (I hadn't returned to their facility yet). I had a feeling she'd call me back! :brows: :clapping: As I suspected, she quoted me a price of $43.22 each for their shocks. I believe that's full retail. I've heard of them going for prices in the low $30's each. These are for the DT3000's.

OB_WAN, Good points! Also, by reading the literature in the catalog I got yesterday, it seems the Pre-Runner 8000s have more of the characteristics you're looking for. They specifically mention "High Velocity, Speed Sensitive Valving". Plus they have the larger 1 5/8" piston & 11/16" chrome shaft. They're cellular gas too.

[LukeNukem]

I have one busted off the perch in the back, After I weld up the mount I'm just gonna get some cheap ass sears gas shocks for a 2" lift. They should ride smooth if anything and I know they'll sure as hell bean no shock at all!

[Rock WoRM]

Hey nice threads guys! Some great info. here. After reading everybodys $02, and even though I'm a cheapo, too,[probably more than most] I'm kinda leaning to the Rancho 9000's. So far I have'nt heard to much "bad" on the 9000's. 4 wheel parts are having their buy 3 get 1 deal for March going on right now. Does anyone know of a cheaper deal?
I'm still keeping my options open, though, so any opinion's cool. :bowdown:

WoRM :bsod:

[Joe Dillard]

-=- originally posted by Rock WoRM -=-
I'm still keeping my options open, though, so any opinion's cool.
I run the RS 9010's out back & the RS 9012's up front. I've toyd with the adjustments a little, but it seems setting #3 of 5 works good for me most of the time.

I purchesed mine through 4WP when they had the buy 3 get the 4th for free sale a little over 2 years ago. I think they were ~$65 each. If you can find a printed add elsewhere advertizing a lower price, 4WP will match the price. I don't know if there's a 4WP up near Fresno, but if shipping is an issue, you may want to consider that as well.

[Rock WoRM]

Thankx Joe,
They do have one here. Shipping no prob. Their a little higher now, closer to $85. I'll do some checking around.
Figure its about time to get rid of the 'ol Pro Carps! :agree:

WoRM :bsod:

[fordtech]

-=- originally posted by Rock WoRM -=-
Hey nice threads guys! Some great info. here.
WoRM :bsod:

I agree! This thread turned out to be alot better than I expected!

One question still.... Where to buy Doetsch? Joe found out that the factory is too much. I checked Summit Racing (free ship) but it will be end of the month for the fronts. Rubicon Express seems to have one of the best prices, but i havent checked theyre shipping.

EDIT: Turns out the shipping is the killer! Rubicon wants 15, some sites quoted 30! Making the wait from Summit look good....

[Joe Dillard]

fordtech, I found out that there's a couple Doetsch distributors not far from the Doetsch facility, all are in El Cajon near where I live. I may run out of time today to swing by their shops & get pricing quotes, but I'll try. If not today, I'll check tomorrow.

[jeepik]

-=- originally posted by fordtech -=-
One question still.... Where to buy Doetsch?


check the phone number in my Sig, best prices for the DT3000's GUARANTEED